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Force Build?
« on: November 13, 2016, 10:37:01 pm »
Hello again guys, Haven't posted since my Gendai which I scrapped after the first session and turned into a Human who eventually made his own Iron Man armor with beskar. It was a wild campaign, and loved having a Uni-beam. Just figured I'd bring that up if anyone was wondering why I disappeared for so long xD

That said, a new campaign idea has sparked and I'm just not sure what to play. I feel very accomplished in all the builds I've set out to do, but I really want to try something different before I Just roll another soldier and throw myself into the meat-grinder. I kind of want to play a force-user, yet we are not allowed to use the Jedi class, despite this we can make force-sensitives and the DM seems okay with me making some kind of force-user IDK. Just want try swinging the force around for once and I've considered some Force-Traditions. Sidenote: should I even worry about the chance of using a lightsaber without the Jedi class?

Anyway, traditions I've been considering are

Warden of the Sky
Matukai

I've also looked at the Shaper of Kro Var as a possibility.  Anyway, I'm mostly just concerned with some thoughts on anyone that's played any of these Force Traditions and if they had any interesting build ideas or what not to work with them? And don't worry if it's something not listed, I'm pretty much open to anything and just want to enjoy the character.

Thanks again!
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 11:08:03 pm »
Not allowing the use of the Jedi class?  Maybe you've seen my views on that before but I think that is just STUPID.  Outside of somewhat specific builds (ie those that want Force Sensitivity and Lightsaber although a lot of people may want to play that) I don't recommend starting in Jedi because of the low number of trained skills.  I may make some starting proficiency substitutions available which gives starting in Jedi some flexibility but starting in the class is pretty straight forward.  Now as something to multiclass into I think Jedi is GREAT as its skill list can provide something new to everyone (except may Scoundrel) but it is also a d10 class with full BAB and a selection of talents where anyone should be able to find something useful.

If I couldn't take a level in the Jedi class I'd pretty much forget about getting WP(lightsaber) and using one.  Sorry but even if it takes entering Jedi at 2nd level picking up WP (lightsaber) as a starting feat from Jedi is just so efficient that I can't think of anytime I'd waste a selectable feat on WP (lightsaber) for any PC.  Some of my NPC Sith may spend a feat on WP (lightsaber) but that's because I'm building them without heroic levels until I get to the PrC levels.

The Matukai don't seem all that different from Jedi except for their choice in weapon.  As a simple weapon it seems just about anyone can use the Wai-shen with proficiency but the Kata and Mastery talents are the ones I'd consider to make it special

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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 12:30:25 am »
Thanks for the quick Reply Steven!

I think it's more or less the whole all Jedi or No Jedi thing, not entirely sure. I'm not particularly angsty about it, but I would like to play a Jedi someday :P
I'm sure it makes sense Story-wise for some reason or another, since we're coming back to the previous campaign but either ten or forty years later, which means it's going to be heavily Mandalorian with another playing continuing as Mandalore.

So with that, I figured force traditions might be an interesting thing to toy around with. That said, I'm still bummed about the lightsaber, but knew that was probably going to be a thing unless I can talk the DM into giving me WP lightsaber for free (...DM rolled for it, nope).

Matukai seemed interesting enough, and I'll give it a look. If I do go Matukai, it makes sense to me that I'd open up with soldier? Not sure, gonna have to look through the books and figure out how I'm gonna do this.

That said, that is still a very martial character and probably the one I'll use if I can't figure out any other interesting builds. I was hoping to make use of Force Adapt for SOMETHING, I just don't know what yet xD
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2016, 05:39:26 pm »
Quote from: Haku on November 14, 2016, 12:30:25 am
Matukai seemed interesting enough, and I'll give it a look. If I do go Matukai, it makes sense to me that I'd open up with soldier? Not sure, gonna have to look through the books and figure out how I'm gonna do this.

That said, that is still a very martial character and probably the one I'll use if I can't figure out any other interesting builds. I was hoping to make use of Force Adapt for SOMETHING, I just don't know what yet xD
If you go with Matukai there are so many directions to go into! If you want to pick up Acrobatics, you will most likely need to dip into Scoundrel as you don't have access to the Jedi class, starting in that class is not recommended though unless you need access to several skills from that class. This leaves you with the choice of Soldier or Scout, with Scout being a good choice for all the great wilderness skills like Survival, Swim, Jump, Climb and Ride. So Scout fits the Matukai well, at least as a starting class. Soldier levels are great for offensive as well as defensive talents and feats and can enhance the Wan-Shen fighting style of the Matukai.

Noble would be a surprising starting class, but even that could work! Remember that the Matukai strive for balance of the physical and spiritual, so staring in Noble could be a way to strengthen the spiritual part of the build.

There are lots of Force Talents that could be useful.

Try to think about what PrC you would like to go for, and plan ahead so you fulfill any requirements!
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2016, 11:27:17 pm »
To me Force Adept is a hard class to use.  I mean all of the "warrior" types such as a Matukai I'd want to shuffle into Jedi Knight or similar for the full BAB and d10 HD.  The JATM may have some new talent for the Force Adept  that make it more appealing to a "mystic" type but I know there are two talent trees in the CWCG (Jedi Healer/Archivist) that fit so much better with the less violent Force Adept.

Merc covers a lot of my views when it comes to starting classes. 

Going back to look at the other traditions you mention the Warden of the Sky.  Looks to me like a tradition that supplements an unarmed combatant with all the problems that come with that.  Now the Shapers look to be a tradition that doesn't rely on normal attack methods.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 06:49:53 am by StevenO »
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 05:46:39 am »
@MERC_1: I've started alot of builds from soldier, so I do like the idea of trying to start my build from Scout (I need to pull up my books and start going over some of the build before I figure this out though). But as said before, Soldier is just -great- for what I imagine will be a very combat-oriented campaign. I suppose what I'm just confused by is how Force Talents work and how to make good use of them, which means READING, but I'm very thankful for your advice!

@Steven: Is it? I didn't realize.

And yes, I did consider Warden of the Sky and even that Shaper of Kro Var PrC too. Anyway, if I were to do Warden, I was thinking of something similar to Scout or Soldier > Force Adept into WotS (Can probably be switched around). Once I start looking over how to build, I'm thinking I can add Teras Kasi in there or something, but I'd just like the build to come online quickly. The idea for the Warden of the Sky in my mind is sort of like a force-using monk. And I do love hand-to-hand, but I'd like to flourish it up a bit more with force abilities instead of doing stuff like pin and grapple (Which I do love), which I was hoping to do by making use of Force Adept.

As you can probably see, my head is full of ideas but I've done exactly no crunch yet as I'm away from my books atm. Still, the concept is there and I'm hoping to make something flavorful and fun to play with.
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2016, 12:39:55 pm »
I haven't read much about the Matukai, but I'm a huge fan of the Warden of the Sky tradition and have built it a lot.
Below is a typical example of what I would build. While I think the idea could be powerful it suffers from a combination of the worst-of-both-worlds (Jedi and Martial Artist). Jedi are MAD by nature and making them NEED strength for both damage and dexterity for duel weapon proficiency makes it even worse. Both force use and Martial Arts are feat heavy builds which means that once you switch into PrCs the problem gets even worse making swicthing into Martial Arts Master (a class you NEED) hard or delayed. Basically I don't think a warden could be an effective character in a campaign unless it was a game with more than normal feats (perhaps additional feats at levels 1,5,10,15,20). Other wise they are simply best as NPCs which the GM can create at level so there is no need to comprise for "strength now" as might be necessary in a campaign.

As always my build goes to level 15, uses a 29 point by, and has HP per level of 1/2HD+2+CON. 
Spoiler: Build (hover to show)
This is another way to build a warden as they do have good synergy with grapple builds, particularly throws. I used nosaurian because I like the species though a human would probably be better for the lack of stat penalties. Unlike most builds I consider this one 'done' by level 12 so I am presenting what I consider to be the minimum here, though for consistency I also built it out to 15 in the second spoiler so it can compare better to the above example. The build centers around the idea of moving opponents against there will, hopefully into one of those unending pits with no safety rails that seem to be everywhere  ;).
Spoiler: Grapple variant (hover to show)
Spoiler: level 15 variant (hover to show)
So although I have build many Wardens this was the first time I built a grapple based on trip not pin. They do synergize well and I think the build could work in a campaign however while trowing is great for contorting enemy positions as it has very little kill potential so it would mostly be useful for moving people into hazards, setting up a melee assassin up for an easy combo, or keeping a vulnerable character safe by literally picking up and throwing away anyone trying to get close to them.
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Re: Force Build?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2016, 10:38:38 pm »
Quote from: mudtop on November 15, 2016, 12:39:55 pm
I haven't read much about the Matukai, but I'm a huge fan of the Warden of the Sky tradition and have built it a lot.
Below is a typical example of what I would build. While I think the idea could be powerful it suffers from a combination of the worst-of-both-worlds (Jedi and Martial Artist). Jedi are MAD by nature and making them NEED strength for both damage and dexterity for duel weapon proficiency makes it even worse. Both force use and Martial Arts are feat heavy builds which means that once you switch into PrCs the problem gets even worse making swicthing into Martial Arts Master (a class you NEED) hard or delayed. Basically I don't think a warden could be an effective character in a campaign unless it was a game with more than normal feats (perhaps additional feats at levels 1,5,10,15,20). Other wise they are simply best as NPCs which the GM can create at level so there is no need to comprise for "strength now" as might be necessary in a campaign.
...

This is all going to depend on if you think you can make an effective unarmed attack.  NEVER think you need to take all, or even many, of the talents in a Traditions specific talent trees just to be a character of that kind.  The Warden talents may not be too bad but there can be more effective options; a problem with cutting Jedi is that it also cuts a great way for any character to dip into a class for talents without giving up BAB.
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