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Messages - poilbrun

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 14, 2020, 03:41:27 am »
Here's the updated character.

Spoiler (hover to show)

Since I dropped Juggernaut, I thought it might be worth it to also drop Improved Armor Defense since she'll be using a Light Armor and the bonus will be lower anyway (she might even use a lighter armor than shown here, but not before level 16, so I left it as is: all it does right now is trade 1 Reflex for 1 Fortitude) so that I could take Commando an take Vanguard instead of Scout for Evasion. That means she gets it later than before, but she keeps her full BAB progression.

I I didn't know about the change to upgrade points for medium and heavy armors, it makes even less sense to wear any else than light then.

Regarding Stormtrooper Armor, if it makes sense for them to wear Stormtrooper armor, then I don't have any problem with it, but otherwise, they'll look as imperial killers (or at the very least, looters). There's a reason that among all the armors that have been created, the best ones are for the bad guys, Stormtrooper Armor and Yuuzhan Vong (with its +5 Fortitude defense), and that's to give them a mechanical edge, so I'm leery of allowing the players to go around that limitation too easily. If they are smart and decide to collect pieces from the various types of Stormtroopers that exist and mix and match them, then that's something else entirely, but I won't let them just pick a Sandtrooper armor, paint it blue, and say "ok, we're good"  :D

The choice between DWM III and Triple Attack is actually a lot easier given how the character is built. Since this is not simply a high level built but it will actually be played level by level, she's able to take DWM III at level 12, but will only be able to take the second MAP at level 16, so that's 4 levels with a lot of penalties for something she will use optionally compared to cancelling a penalty for something that will be the bread and butter of her character. The highest Reflex defense I see is 36, so with her best attack will need a 12 to hit (actually probably just a 10 since she'll probably be level 20 by then), and that's without counting any equipment bonus she might acquire in play like the tech specialist +1 to attack.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 13, 2020, 02:35:38 pm »
Quote from: StevenO on June 13, 2020, 01:51:54 pm
Quote from: poilbrun on June 13, 2020, 01:09:13 pm
And here's the Soldier:

Spoiler (hover to show)
I'd REALLY expect this character to pick up 'trooper Armor at some point but DEX 20 and MEDIUM Armor with a MAX DEX of +2 is just painful to see.  Throw on the need for Juggernaut just to keep up and it's all that much more painful!  With DEX 20 I typically wouldn't even put my characters in armor unless it's some light stuff that has a MAX Dex that allows for +5.  That pains me almost as much as seeing three non-Soldier skills trained with only INT 12.

When it comes to making multiple attacks using two weapons my choice of reducers in DWMII and MAPx1 which should get you the two attacks without penalty.  Adding that third and fourth attack are more about getting options because while the penalty reducers can be the biggest bang for you buck when it comes net attack unless you can stand here and make full attacks they aren't nearly as useful as a bonus that would apply to all attacks.

http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/the-senate-8/dual-weapon-mastery-multiattack-rapid-shot-and-double-attack/ Here is that topic I mentioned where I go over the various full attack combos and the penalties for those attacks vs. the "cost" of reducing those penalties.  Spending a total of 8 feats & talents could get your penalties for making four attacks reduced to zero but at what opportunity cost?
The armor's max dex will increase by +1 anyway as the Mechanic will use Tech Specialist to improve it, but I'll be honest: we built the character with heavy armor in mind, but when I entered the character in the Excel sheet, it gave me an error as Soldiers don't get Heavy Armor Proficiency, which I thought they did. The main idea was to get heavy armor for the 3 modification slots, but I agree, I'm not sure the investment is worth it for medium armor. From a pure Reflex Defense perspective, it wasn't really worth it either, but as we might take Grand Army of the Republic training, an extra +4 to Fortitude and Will made it appealing. We might change the build some more to account for that change.

One thing is certain though: they won't regularly use Stormtrooper armor, as that makes no sense in game. It is too distinctive and easily recognizable for heroes to be wearing it all the time.

There's only 1 non-soldier skill trained, Stealth, thanks to the Criminal background. I'm not sure why the Excel sheet puts Deception and Gather Information in the primary skills list...

Regarding the multiple attacks, I think Triple Attack would be overkill, we might stick to DWM III, Double Attack and 2 Multiattack Proficiency. That would allow 3 attacks per round at -1 and with Rapid Shot and Trigger Work, that's a good damage output I think, for 5 feats and 3 talents.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 13, 2020, 01:09:13 pm »
And here's the Soldier:

Spoiler (hover to show)
She's the highest level character because we already knew what we wanted to do until then.

The final levels will either be Soldier 3/Gunslinger 1 (to take Double & Triple Attack and Grand Army of the Republic Training and 1 Soldier Talent) or 2/2 (drop Triple Attack, but get 1 Gunslinger Talent on top).

I typed this after your reply.
After reading it when I pressed preview, we might actually drop Running Attack & Dash and Blast and instead take Double Attack and Multi Attack Proficiency twice which would bring that character to level 18 and give a -1 penalty when using Double Attack.
Then we'd have a choice between Soldier 2 (1 feat, 1 Talent), Gunslinger 2 (1 Talent, +1 Damage) or Soldier 1/Gunslinger 1 (1 feat, +1 Damage). We would also have the level 18 character feat free, so maybe Triple Attack there and Gunslinger 2 and take Multi Attack Proficiency a third time for a -4? We have time before having to make that choice.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 13, 2020, 07:46:48 am »
Phew, busy week, I haven't had a lot of time for rpg's or anything else for that matter.

Here's the Jedi at level 10.

Spoiler (hover to show)

We need some more time to look at Force Techniques and Secrets to finalize the character, but the goal is to end up Jedi Knight 5/Jedi Master x (depending on how many Secrets are needed) and then either finish with Knight levels for Techniques or just Jedi levels for feats.

Another question, for the other two characters: how does Running Attack actually work?
  • Is it Swift - Do whatever; Move - Do whatever; Standard - Attack in the middle of a 6-square move?
  • Or is it Swift - Do whatever; Move and Standard - Attack in the middle of a 6-square move?
It's important, because the Soldier will take a second weapon, will she be able to use Running Attack and shoot with both weapons using a full round or not?

Another question for the soldier: how does Dual Weapon work with Double or Triple Attack? Once she has DWM III (so no penalty), if she takes a -10 to use Triple Attack, she will get 3 attacks for her primary weapon, but does she get 1 attack (at 0 or -10?) or 3 attacks (at -10) with her secondary weapon?

Edit: just a small change needed, I had left both Destiny and Background included from the level 1 character in the Excel sheet  :)

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 09, 2020, 01:57:49 am »
Regarding Pilot, she's let go of the idea to focus on the mechanic part, that's why there's no level of Ace Pilot or any talent spent directly to improve that part. She'll want to be a Gunner, that's why she takes Weapon Proficiency (heavy) pretty early (level 3). If someone ends up being the pilot of their own ship rather than be ferried around, it will be the Soldier, whose skill check is 1 better anyway, though the Jedi is still toying with the idea of taking Force pilot to have the best pilot check of the group (at first, the idea was to be the Luke to the mechanic's Han and fly as an escort in a starfighter, but it might turn out differently thanks to the rework), but that means using a force talent for a non-combat use...

Quote from: Rapid Shot Feat errata
Remove the Strength prerequisite from the feat.
Add the following sentence to the Special section of the feat: “If you do not have a Strength of 13 or higher, increase the penalty to attacks to –5 when using this feat with non-vehicle weapons.”
There's not much to rule on...

Gunslinger after those 12 levels is also an option, for good BAB and talent choices.

Ooh, the rifle with folded stock/grenade launcher combination is appealing  ;D

Now that I look in detail at the Military Engineer, it might actually not make sense to take 3 levels and instead take 2 levels in Scoundrel to pick up Personalized Modifications at level 11 (instead of at level 10 with the PrC) and then just take one level for Repairs on the Fly at level 12 (same as currently). BAB would be the same, she'd get 1 feat instead of Field-Created Weapon which she wasn't that impressed by anyway (losing 1 standard action to create it is not that good of a deal). On the other hand, she would get 4 instead of 5 hp and 5 instead of 6 Force Points at those levels


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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 08, 2020, 09:51:35 pm »
Thanks Merc, not much to reply to your post except that I'll keep an eye out for anything too crazy  ;)

Regarding Force Training or Skill Focus, that was an intentional choice: he preferred less powers that were more likely to hit than the other way around. Regarding SAM, I had a look at it before even starting character creation (it had been mentioned on Reddit, where I first learned of the existence of this forum), but that's adding an extra system in place for our first campaign, so I decided against it. This makes the Jedi stronger, but I know he won't be played optimally anyway...

OK for the drawing weapons.

For character development, we'll still go with pre-planning while keeping in mind that plans can change, but I'm wary of allowing retroactive changes (I'm ok with changes while still on the same level though, since there's no experienced player at the table to advise against bad choices).

For the Stormtroopers, I hadn't noticed that they were squads, I'll read about that later.

For skills, I guess that's because I only know of level 1 characters, so the difference between trained and untrained is huge. I'm sure as they level up,  the difference will seem less impressive.

The reason she has currently selected light armors is in case she decides to take other level of soldiers later and can pick up Armored Defense. I guess we don't know enough about the various types of weapons, so we thought pistols and heavy weapons (which she is kinda interested in) were good enough with also dipping into rifles. Yeah, the Sniper pickup at level 9 is due to her having kinda finished her mechanic development as far as feats were concerned and Rapid Shot was unavailable due to the 13 STR requirement, otherwise she'd have gone with Trigger Work.

The problem with going back into Improviser now is that she'll lose another BAB at level 1, have to select Black Market Dealings when she already will have +15 in Gather Information (via Trace and Use Computer), so we're taking a mostly useless level 1, a so-so level 2 (unless I understand Contraband really wrong, the 15k credits she gets from Wealth make up for the 3k she would get from Contraband at Improviser 3) and a "kinda useful" talent at level 3. She might as well take 3 more levels of Noble: she'll also lose the BAB, but get a lot more credits per level that would make up for cost reductions, but she'll get 2 feats and a talent...

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 08, 2020, 04:45:17 pm »
Quote from: MERC_1 on June 08, 2020, 04:16:44 pm
Quote from: StevenO on June 07, 2020, 08:01:58 pm
Quote
For Excellent Kit, the +2 to Mechanics would still apply to ship, right? Would the hp and DR apply to droids? That's mainly why she wanted it. Another feat she had her eyes on was Superior Tech (Droids), so she was looking at all the ways she could increase their usefulness and survivability...
No to both.  You ship isn't something that would be considered "equipment" otherwise buying a ship and get 50% more hp and +5 on it's DR would be INSANE.  Droids are generally considered characters even if you view them as "equipment" and shouldn't get those bonuses either.
Excellent Kit may not apply, as starships are not really equipment, and Excellent Kit only apply when buying equipment, weapons and armor. If it would apply, you would be a very well paid ship broker!

But if you have the talent Only the Finest, then you can buy goods through the black market that can have a Tech Specialist upgrade at no extra cost! So, if you want extra HP and DR, applying the Device Trait: Improved Durability you get +1 DR and +25% HP. Not as good as Excellent Kit, but pretty darn good anyway.

Actually, you can apply any Device trait to a starship! There is a clarification on page 48 of Scum and Villainy that all weapons, armor and vehicles are also devices and can benefit from device traits when using Tech Specialist or Superior Tech.

Now I don't think anyone will argue against that starships are vehicles. But I don't think that all devices are equipment even if the opposite is true.
Two questions about Only the Finest:
  • The talent says it does not increase the base value of the item. I assume the black market cost multiplier still applies, it's just the increase from the Tech Specialist modification that doesn't apply, or am I wrong?
  • Getting the talent would mean taking 3 levels (since there's a talent prerequisite) in Improviser, which she had decided against in the rework. I'm not sure it would make sense given that she has Tech Specialist anyway.
Any other advice on useful choices for the mechanic? If not, she'll probably choose at that time whether she wants to improve her own combat prowess or to take talents to improve her allies, but she's not planning yet, as the campaign until then will play a big role in the choice.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 08, 2020, 02:53:38 pm »
Here's the reworked mechanic, she moved away from the droid stuff on your recommendations, kept the mechanic stuff mostly for in-game use and modifications, but is not interested in the Demolitions talent, so she went with another Second Wind per day as the Commando talent. She still has 3 free languages and a free feat at level 12.

Spoiler (hover to show)

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 08, 2020, 01:40:11 am »
Regarding her attacks, I understand she will not stand stand up to the bad guys, but if I plug her level 14 build in the last encounter of adventure 10, she would be able to hit the stormtroopers with a 13 and would be hit with a 9. The Inquisitor is supposed to be one-on-one with the Jedi and the Shadow Guard (I'll probably only have one since I have a 3-player group) will face off against the Soldier.
So, keeping in mind that in truth, her defenses will have gone up by 6 by that time and her attacks at least by 4, we're talking getting hit by a 15 and hitting on a 9 versus the enemies she'll be expected to handle. I don't see it as that bad for a character that clearly has her focus elsewhere, especially given that she might have other options than simply shooting her blaster at that time (grenades, heavy weapons...). BTW, is it normal that these Soldier 7/Elite Trooper 3 have 200 hit  points, more that their CL 17 and CL 20 superiors?

I see a bit more how to handle destinies, it's just that the NPCs built on this forum for contests and the like gave me a false impression about them.
Regarding backgrounds, I see how you can have a negative view on them as you explained it here, I guess it's just that we're novices so we did not view them as a way to game the system but as a way to round up a character. The mechanic with a level in Soldier used it for Persuasion to be able to act as the face of the group (that's not what she had selected until we changed the characters around), the Jedi chose Treat Injury but did not train it and the Soldier chose Stealth to represent a Commando-type character, but she plans to enter the Elite Trooper and Gunslinger PrC which do not require it. You know how they can be abused, but when I looked at how they actually used them, I did not see anything too outrageous.  :)

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 08:35:36 pm »
Regarding Excellent Kit, I agree with you about the hp and DR, it says equipment and gear. But in the part about the +2, it just says "object that your purchased", so I thought that would mean droids and ships too...

For the Soldier/Scoundrel start, that will be up to her. Now that she has a better idea of how her character will turn out, it might make more sense. Regarding backgrounds and the extra class skill, it doesn't look that bad to me, but I guess that why I came and asked here. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and use Destinies then... but what bothers me is that I don't really understand how they work. When I see characters built here on the forums, they have one and sometimes more finished, but in this campaign, they're still taking major steps in adventure 9 and no more sidebars in adventure 10, so I don't really now how to handle it.

Regarding the Vanguard, I'm not getting hung up on the name, I grasped that I should look more at the character as a whole than as individual pieces. What I meant is more than there are a lot of changes needed to get to it that will impact her character than just dipping one level into scout. I can easily see a character going 6 levels then learning to evade area damage with no further explanation. Whereas the changes needed to enter Vanguard means she will lose some talents and she'll need to take others she had no interest in (maybe wrongly given their usefulness, but still...). I'll just expose the options to her, she'll be the one who decides what character she wants to play.

I'm not a big fan of rebuilding myself, that's why we're spending so much time trying to get it right. In her case, doing so made her change her mind about the direction she wanted to take her character in for example. But my big problem with rebuilding is that you can make choices that make leveling easier then rebuild to make your high level character better. It's like SW D6 used to do it with Force Points if I remember correctly: power was easier to obtain at low level for darksiders, but as you leveled it grew even and that the highest levels, lightsiders were stronger. On the contrary, I've always hated how in Pathfinder (I'm never sure if it was in D&D 3e or if they made the change), a sorcerer with his limited selection of spells can choose a strong low level spell like sleep, then forget it to get a more useful long-term option once it's become useless.

Here of course it's a bit different: it's our first time playing this game and there are a lot of choices to make that can affect your character on the long term either because of the choice itself or because of prerequisites you won't meet later on. I mean, according to the Index spreadsheet, there are 366 feat and 1193 talents to take into consideration!

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 06:37:05 pm »
Soldier is mainly for the 30 hp at level 1.

We're not going to be using Destinies, so I'll have them remove the points from their sheet. I was going to at first, but when I read the rules, I didn't like how it worked and the adventures don't make it any better. I guess it makes sense to have it in a Star Wars games, I just don't like the mechanics, both for the players and the DM. I just copied what was on the sheet  :)

Scout is the one she hesitated a lot for, but ended up going with it. Since she realizes she will be weak in combat anyway, she preferred to take a defensive option.

Sorry for the notation, I did not know how to convey the progression in an understandable way.

She did indeed take Scoundrel at level 4 just for Trace since no one could cover Gather Information, but I didn't know about the feat. She might drop the Scoundrel level, take Informer at level 3, and push Skill Focus (Mechanics) that she was taking then to later on. PBS and Precise were taken when we created the character at first, I'll see if she wants to move the feats around a little. That's the last time I'll allow a change to be made to level 1 choices, though, since they'll become level 2 at the start of the next session. Her BAB is really weak but from what we've discussed, the others might for for +20 BAB character (Jedi/Knight/Master and Soldier/Gunslinger/Elite Trooper) or at the very least 18 (mainly to go get Evasion from Scout and PBS and one of the nice combat-related talents from Scoundrel).

Droid Expert is planned for level 14, so if we see that droid use isn't that important, she still might decide not to take it. It sounded nice, by the time she takes it, her skill bonus should be 23, so with take 10, that would grant an extra 11 hp every time she repaired a droid for a standard action (with Repairs on the fly - once per day, of course)...

Thanks for the warning about the equipment bonus, we had not noticed that!

Vanguard would need taking a character in a different direction, so I don't think it's on the card, but I'll mention it to her. She will get a free trained skill at level 8 when her Intelligence increases, and by that time, Stealth would be on her class list...

For Excellent Kit, the +2 to Mechanics would still apply to ship, right? Would the hp and DR apply to droids? That's mainly why she wanted it. Another feat she had her eyes on was Superior Tech (Droids), so she was looking at all the ways she could increase their usefulness and survivability...

I'll let her know of your ideas for the rework of the character, that's a lot of changes even to her first level. I think they all liked starting with d10 classes because the 3d6 base damage for the standard pistol really scares them!

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 04:32:49 pm »
Here's the Jedi at level 1, same 28 Point Buy with an extra +2 (they surprised me by putting it in Wisdom rather than Strength).

Spoiler (hover to show)

And here's the Soldier at level 1, the +2 went to Dexterity. I'm not entirely sure why she didn't buy an armor... I think she wanted to keep the money to buy a better one once they have earned some money rather than buy the cheap one and only gain 1 in Reflex Defense.

Spoiler (hover to show)

I remembered another question: in Pathfinder (I don't remember if it was in D&D 3e), you can draw a weapon as part of a move (so no need to take 2 move actions). I see no mention of it in SWSE, could you confirm I did not miss it?

Quote from: MERC_1 on June 07, 2020, 03:27:21 pm
Dipping in so many 3/4 BAB classes makes her lose a total of 5 BAB so far. That is a lot! It's so much that I would almost consider her a non-combat character. In a fight against herself she would need a roll of 16 to hit herself. That is not good. If she fights some character of equal level that has a better BAB it will be tough!
I agree and she realizes it also, but the other two characters will be very combat-focused, so her role in combat will either be to do the non-combat-related actions (opening the locked door, accessing the computer terminal,...) or to handle the secondary enemies while the other two take care of the really dangerous ones. As time goes on, she might even be there to handle her droids more than to fight herself.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 02:37:04 pm »
Here is what the character would look like at level 14:
Spoiler (hover to show)

In case you need it, the progression is Soldier 1, Noble 2, Scoundrel 1, Noble 4, Scout 1, Improviser 3, Soldier 2, Military Engineer 3.

It's missing 2 feats, the Soldier feat she gets at level 11 and at the one she gets at level 12, she'll probably go with more combat-focused ones (double attack, triple critical, weapon focus [to qualify for weapon specialization if she ends up taking one more Soldier level]). She's also not selected all languages yet, but she's sure she wants Gamorreans and Shyriiwook since they can't speak Basic, and she wants Lekku so that she can get subtle information Twi'leks wouldn't be able to convey in Basic. Equipment is also not done yet as a lot of it will take place in-game, but Wealth alone will provide her with 220k credit.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 12:41:18 pm »
Here's the Mechanic as she looked at the start of the campaign:

Gemma Frye            CL 1

Medium Human soldier 1
Destiny 1; Force 5
Init +7; Senses Perception +6
Languages Basic, Binary, Durese, Huttese

Defenses Ref 15 (flat-footed 13), Fort 14, Will 12
hp 31; second wind +12/15; Threshold 14

Speed 6 squares
Melee knife +1 (1d4)
Ranged heavy blaster pistol +3 (3d8)
Base Atk +1; Grp +3
Atk Options Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Abilities Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Talents Armored Defense
Feats Armor Proficiency (light, medium), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Proficiency (pistols, rifles, simple weapons)
Primary Skills Initiative +7, Mechanics +8, Perception +6, Persuasion +7, Pilot +7, Treat Injury +6, Use Computer +8
Secondary Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +0, Deception +2, Endurance +1, Gather Information +2, Jump +0, Knowledge (bureaucracy) +3, Knowledge (galactic lore) +3, Knowledge (life sciences) +3, Knowledge (physical sciences) +3, Knowledge (social sciences) +3, Knowledge (tactics) +3, Knowledge (technology) +3, Ride +2, Stealth +2, Survival +1, Swim +0
Possessions blast helmet and vest (+2 armor), 45 credits, heavy blaster pistol with spare power pack, knife, utility belt (3 day food supply, medpac, tool kit, power pack, energy cell, glow rod, comlink, liquid cable dispenser), concealed holster, credit chip, license: heavy blaster, medpac, mesh tape, security kit

It's the suggested point buy, with an extra +2 to INT afterwards (a usual house rule I have when I have fewer players than the usual 4-player party; so when we play one-on-one with my wife, she gets 3 extra +2 she can distribute).

We've mapped out her progression until level 14, I'll just need to enter it in the Excel character sheet when I have some more time, but I like to do it level by level so that I can use the sheet as a double check on prerequisites. Level 2 will be noble with the Wealth talent and the Linguist feat.

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The Senate / Re: Question about running a game by poilbrun
« on: June 07, 2020, 06:58:41 am »
  • We'll look into integrating armor in the characters then, I guess I need to read more about the tech they can include in it, as I was mainly looking at the defense bonuses.
  • I forgot about using a stun setting, I'll have to keep that in mind for other droids.
  • OK, so no PrC before level 8 for anyone.
  • So, a frigate is probably a bad idea, as I thought. I'll probably allow them to have a Colossal ship for the group with a huge fighter attached like in Firefly, where Inara's ship is attached to the Serenity. As it stands, the Pilot/Mechanic wants to fly her own ship, the Soldier will probably take Heavy Weapons Proficiency and play as a gunner, but the Jedi wants to pilot too (I told you he wanted to do everything  ;)), but I want to also keep him with the rest of the group.
We haven't had a detailed look at the character progression yet. We spent this week's evening preparing the characters to be able to play this weekend with a vague idea of where they want to go, but now we'll start working on where we want the characters to end up and the choices level by level, especially since they'll level early the next time we play. Once it's done, I'll post the characters here.

Edit: Since I posted this, we've started looking at my wife's character, and she'll drop most of the pilot stuff from her character, as she finds the mechanics part more fun, so most of my questions about starships don't matter that much anymore, they'll be happy to be driven around by an npc.

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