TheSagaContinues

Improvised Melee Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons can be used: chairs, bottles, crates, and so on. Because these objects are not designed for such use, characters who use Improvised Melee Weapons are treated as not proficient with them and take a -5 penalty on their attack rolls. The GM determines the size and Damage dealt by an Improvised Weapon.

Since most Imp Wpns have an irregular damage dealt dice, the benefit is to balance it’s damage comparatively to Simp Wpns. To give Improvised Wpn Mastery an extended benefit to additional damage on Simp Wpns that do have established Damage dice, that wouldn’t make much sense even by RAW.

Firstly, I should not have used Instance 123 and then used Instance again to explain a different set of scenarios. For the record, those two set of Instances are not referring to each other.

Aware = Not Surprised; the presence of a Surprise round all depends on awareness and if some have it while others do not.

You can be Aware and Surprised. (See Comment on Instance 2 below)

To see if I can follow your Instances:
Instance 1:  No one is aware of the other side until EVERYONE is suddenly aware of everyone else.  This might be everyone in a pitch black room (no darkvision!) then the lights come on.  There's no Surprise Round as it is effectively cancelled out.

I think you're making an equivocation of the term aware in this case and I think you're forgetting although you can't see someone you can still hear them. That dark room may not have people that have darkvision but people still make noise and thus should be making Perception checks. I'll admit the Surprise Round is still cancelled out if somehow no one perceived anyone else but that's to be determined.

Instance 2:  If everyone is aware of everyone else there's no Surprise Round.  This can be two sides on opposite sides of a barrier that is coming down when both groups know the other group is on the other side.

Agreed. This is where Surprise Strike might be used.

Surprise Strike
Sometimes a smuggler has to fight his way out of a bad situation. If you fail any Deception check to convey deceptive information, you can initiate combat and make a single Unarmed attack as a Free Action in the Surprise Round (Or with a melee or ranged weapon, if you have the Quick Draw Feat); all other combatants are considered Surprised even if they are aware of you.

Instance 3:  This is when some are entering a situation where only some people are aware of the other side.  This is where you get a Surprise Round as those who are Aware at the time get to act while those who are unaware (Surprised!) don't get to act in the initial round. I'm not sure how you can be Aware and Surprised at the same time as those are contradictory conditions.

See above.

I've got no idea what that Instance 4 is although I suspect it's related to Instance 3 although this time the "side" has been switched.

That's right. I didn't bother and neither does the core rules when making the distinction.

2.  Part of one or both groups enters aware of of the other group while other are unaware:  This triggers a Surprise Round; now the Ambush Specialist can declare that Prime Target (I believe that's the term) during this surprise round if the character can act (is aware) but AS wouldn't trigger again on the first regular round of combat as well.

That's why I initially said that Ambush Specialist has poor wording. I don't think the second part should trigger again either but the first part should trigger in the first regular round after the Surprise Round as normal (even if there was no Surprise Round but not if that is because all combatants were Surprised like your example in Instance 1).

When you say "AS" wouldn't trigger again, it's implied that you're referring to the first part as well (and it's probably why I think we're still figuring this out).

Firstly, rolling initiative for everyone in a Surprise Round, even though some combatants are Unaware of their enemy, is nothing more than a GM shortcut.
A shortcut that is costly, since it’s unclear who gets to act and who doesn’t, in the Surprise Round.

Secondly, StevenO, I sincerely respect your opinion.

That’s why I’m going to ask you this:

How can someone with Combat Reflexes take an (what I’m guessing you’re referring to) Attack of Opportunity, in a Surprise Round, if they don’t get to act?

I’m even willing to indulge the idea:

Where is the action for drawing a pike at the start of combat (in the Surprise Round), for an Unaware combatant that has no initiative score?

Now, we’re in murky waters.

Is it then that only Unaware combatants in the Surprise Round, with Combat Reflexes and say... Martial Arts I, can take Unarmed AoOs?

Is so, then that’s the exception and it coexists with my position on Surprise Rounds not being the first Round of combat because all participants do not have an initiative score and AoOs are not governed by one’s place in initiative (neither are Reactions for that matter).

An easy way to remember this is that:
Unaware combatants can not take actions (including Free Actions), but they can take Reactions.

Edit: added and removed some redundancies for clarity.

Spoiler: disclaimer (hover to show)

some of the stuff I write now might sound like offense or bickering or arguing. It is not meant to be, and don´t take it as any of that please. It is really meant only as a sum up, not to stir up some bad feelings or something

Ok, I think I´ve had enough of this debate. I think now we can agree on two points:
A) I believe that Surprise round counts as first combat turn
B) You (Oddomattx) believe that it doesn´t

I´ve tried to make you accept my point of view, and you did the same (with more quotations I admit). Neither of us succeeded, and I think that brings us to third point we can agree on:
C) we can´t change each other point of view. I think I can deduce that much from the effort you put into proving it, and you know you can´t change mine because I just said it here

Spoiler: why? (hover to show)

Because it feels wrong to me not to count the Surprise round as combat round. Heck, it feels so wrong that If official errata came that it doesn´t then I would house-rule it the way I feel it anyway

Who´s right? I don´t know. But I feel that if I try to force you to do it my way than I´m the loser since I´d be taking away your right for your opinion and your enthusiasm for the game (and mine too, by the way).

That gets me to the end: I hope we can agree to disagree on this one. I´m not going to dispute this topic any further since I do not believe I could do anything productive. (Though I admit I´d like to see more different people opinions)

I appreciate the discussion.

Yes, I added those in an edit. It got lost in first writing. Problems with writing a single post for two hours at work, sorry for inconvenience.

I work the night shift as well. Totally understandable.

What I tried to say - if you say that Surprise round is not first round of combat, then it is not part of combat since there is no zero round or anything.

Why are you calling the Surprise Round anything other than the Surprise Round?

This isn't a dispute about whether or not combat begins in the Surprise Round or after the Surprise Round (with the first Round).
This is about whether or not the Surprise Round is considered the first Round (of combat). It seems we're having two different arguments.

To elucidate further:
1) Combat begins
2) Determine if Surprise Round, (combatant awareness)
3) if so, begin Surprise Round then First Round (Some Surprised)
4) or if not Surprise Round, begin First Round. (None/Everyone Surprised)

My argument has always been about step 3.
There doesn't seem to be any confusion about steps 1, 2, or 4.

That would mean what I implied - that you could have several surprise rounds if not all combatants are aware,

How?

and dozens abilities that state "in combat" or "during combat" in its description could be ruled that they are not available during surprise round.

How are you getting to this conclusion?

Yes, it is close to going to reductio ad absurdum, but the point is - if you rule that Surprise round is not first round of combat, then these statements are going right according to the logic.

How so?

What I meant is that there are regular rounds and surprise rounds but they are BOTH combat rounds, Surprise round being first combat round if present.

What is this "Combat Rounds?"

See above. (We're not disputing what constitutes combat).

EDIT: The round does involve every combatant, but not every combatant can act during round. If someone goes Unconscious during the combat, he can take no actions, yet is still part of the combat. He can be healed, coup-de-graced, attacked...

Sure, that's what I was trying to say. Not every combatant can act during the Surprise Round, yet during a typical Round, everyone can act to some degree thus, this (Surprise) Round is atypical. The rules call this kind of a Round, a Surprise Round. Combat takes place but it's not the first Round. It's "Pre-First Round" or simply, the Surprise Round. I believe the d20 system's wording suffices.

Maybe this will make my take on the surprise round clear:

When does the combat start?
A) with surprise round
B) after surprise round

Again, See above.
This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

if A is true, then logic dicates surprise round is first round of combat, since it is part of combat and it is round

You're lacking definitions of what constitutes a Round before you can justify what the first Round is.
If you're saying combat is the reason then that's not mutually exclusive to the Surprise Round or the first Round. If you're saying it's when anyone can roll initiative, then that is mutually exclusive to the Surprise Round because not everyone can roll initiative in the Surprise Round. Therefore, the first Round where everyone can roll initiative constitutes the first (regular) Round. The rules are quite clear on this (see rules on initiative order):

Initiative Order
In every round during combat, each combatant gets to do something. The combatants' Initiative checks determine the order in which they act, from highest to lowest.

This statement is false in the Surprise Round. We know that Unaware combatants do not get to do anything in the Surprise Round.

if B is true, then logic dictates first regular round is first round, but also that you can´t use any abilties used "in combat" in surprise round, since the combat hasn´t started yet

This a complex error in reasoning.
1) There's an assumption that the start of combat is still being disputed at this point. It's not. Combat has begun according to your initial statement and as I've stated before is a non-issue (See above). This is immediately contradicted in the third part of the statement.
2) There's a contradiction in the second part due to the assumption in the if/then that combat is false.

See above for more.

EDIT: clarified my last argument of your A B statements.

Surprise states that opponents are surprised when the combat starts. That means that surprise round (if present) is part of combat, and then it must be the first round since no other round appeared before it. If the surprise round is not part of combat, then whatr happens? Some of the combatants are unaware, thus the surprise round occurs. IF it is NOT part of combat, then after it a combat starts, you AGAIN check for awareness, and you AGAIN have surprise round. Sure, if on your first round you shoot, it makes enemies aware of you, but you could be doing many different things that would not make them aware

You lost me here.

In the surprise round statemnet, it is written that first REGULAR round starts after it.

Yes, that logic implies the reverse must be true then: the Surprise Round is an irregular round because if your claim was true, then it should say that in the second Round regular rounds begin. But it doesn't.

That regular part is the core here. It means that combat rounds consist of more than single type - there are regular combat rounds, and there is surprise round.

It's almost like you agree with me with this wording of your statement. The Surprise Round isn't the same as the first round of combat. A round involves every combatant, a Surprise Round doesn't. Again:

Ambush Specialist
If you are not Surprised on the first round of combat in an encounter, you can treat the first round of combat as if it were the Surprise Round for the purposes of Talents and Feats that trigger only during the Surprise Round. Additionally, during the Surprise Round as a Free Action you can designate a target as your Prime Target. You gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls against your Prime Target until the end of the encounter.

There is no point to state this if you can't be Surprised in any round other than the Surprise Round. That is main issue I'm trying to emphasize about the poor wording of this ability. You can only be Surprised in the Surprise Round so it can't be the first round of combat because Surprise holds no value in the first round.

It's an empty statement.

Funny you say that you dislike Steven saying that "surprise round is combat round because it has round in the name", yet at the same time you basically say "surprise round is not combat round because it doesn´t have combat written in the name"

I don't appreciate being misquoted. Basically say, and what I said are two different things where logic is king.

Surpise strike
I was about to agree with Steven, but after reading the talent carefully, I think you´re right in the fact that it gives you surprise round for you only AND a free action to attack. What made me accept is is the fact that quick draw is mentioned. If you didn´t have that action (which you can use with quick draw to draw a weapon and then make an attack with it), there would be no need to mention quick draw as there would be no way to draw your weapon anyway.
So, with surprise strike, you can make TWO unarmed attacks (one as standard action you gain from surprise round, one as free), or draw a weapon without quick draw (move action) and make free unarmed attack (because Suprise strikes allows you to make attack with weapon as free only if you have quick draw), or draw a weapon with quick draw (swift) and make an attack with it as free. Or, with lightning draw (which has quick draw as prerequisite), you could draw a weapon and attack with it (standard action-Lighting draw) and attack with it again (free action-Surprise strike).
(or one of hundered different things with the action you get plus one free unarmed attack)

Oh... yes, you're right the mention of quick draw would need a swift action in the surprise round in order to get the weapon out but the attack is free. Lightning Draw is necessary to get two attacks (or some other mention of getting a free swift action (Surprisingly Quick) or extra move action (Bad Feeling) in surprise round). That does make more sense.

Ambush specialist
Ambush specialist lets you treat first round of the combat surprise round to activate feats, talents... However, suprise round, if occurs, IS a first round of combat. So when first regular (aka, non-surprise) round comes, you can´t activate it again, since it is the second round of combat, and the first round of combat already occured - the surprise round.

Okay, I challenge this line of reasoning. I believe that the Surprise Round does not count as the first round of combat. Why? Well, firstly, I feel like most people get Surprise Rounds incorrect.

Surprise

When combat starts, if you are not aware of your enemies, but they are aware of you, you're Surprised. If you know about your opponents, but they don't know about you, you Surprise them.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents; sometimes none are; sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware, and other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining Awareness
The GM determines who is aware of who at the start of a battle. They may call for Perception checks to see how aware the characters are of their opponents. Some example situations:

The mission team enters a cantina and immediately spots a gang of Rodians. Alert and watchful, the Rodians also notice the heroes. Both sides are aware; neither is Surprised. The heroes and the Rodians make Initiative checks, and the battle begins.
While exploring an abandoned armory, the heroes are being watched by a pack of Jawas. The Jawas lurk in hiding places, waiting for the right time to strike and defend their new lair from the intruders. Sia-Lan spots one of the Jawas as it tries to sneak behind a partially destroyed Battle Droid. The Jawas shriek and leap from their hiding places, surrounding the heroes. The Jawas and Sia-Lan each get to act during the Surprise Round. The other heroes, caught unaware, can't act. After the Surprise Round, the first regular Round of combat begins.
The mission team advances down a dark corridor in the Space-Station fortress of Grumbog, an alien warlord, using Glow Rods to light the way. At the end of the corridor, three of Grumbog's soldiers have set up an E-Web Repeating Blaster. They fire the weapon, sending a powerful blast down the corridor. That's the end of the Surprise Round. After determining whether any of the heroes were hit, and calculating Damage, the GM announces that the first regular Round of combat begins. The mission team is in a tough spot, since they are facing a powerful weapon and still can't see who is attacking them.
The Surprise Round
If some, but not all, of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a Surprise Round happens before regular Rounds begin. The combatants who are aware of their opponents can act in the Surprise Round, so they make Initiative checks.[/b] In Initiative order (Highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a single Action- a Standard Action, a Move Action, or a Swift Action (But not a Full-Round Action)- during the Surprise Round. If no one is Surprised, a Surprise Round doesn't occur.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle do not get to act in the Surprise Round. Unaware combatants are Flat-Footed because they have not acted yet, so they do not apply their Dexterity bonus (If any) to their Reflex Defense.[/b]

I've I tried to highlight the important parts of the rules of Surprise Rounds that pertains to my argument. I'll try to summarize:

Just because you're Surprised doesn't mean you're Unaware. Being Surprised is essentially a marker that a Surprise Round has been granted to at least some combatant(s). In the case of Surprise Strike, the Scoundrel would get an attack (in the Surprise Round) because the enemies are Surprised, even if they're aware of him. Let's list the possible states of awareness then figure out what that means for a surprised combatant:

Combat starts, All Combatants Aware = No Surprise Round
Combat starts, All Combatants Unaware = No Surprise Round
Some Combatants Unaware = Surprise Round (for Aware combatants only)
Some Combatants Aware = Surprise Round (for Aware combatants only)

So a Surprise Round has occurred, what happens to who?
1) Surprised and Unaware cannot act in the Surprise Round, they're also Flat-footed (they do not get to roll initiative in the SR).
2) Surprised and Aware can act in the Surprise Round, they're only Flat-footed until their turn comes up (and they roll initiative in the SR).

Scoundrel fails Deception against Negotiator A and uses Surprise Strike, Negotiator A and B are Surprised but aware. Drunk Guard fails Perception while talking to another bar patron, he's Surprised and Unaware.

Scoundrel, Negotiator A and B roll initiative in the Surprise Round, but not Drunk Guard. If Scoundrel rolls a 12 and Negotiator A and B roll a 15, Scoundrel has to wait his turn to use Surprise Strike and since he reacted slower, Negotiator A and B managed to lose Flat-footed status by the time Scoundrel takes his turn.

(You should WANT this to happen this way, considering that level 3 Scoundrels using Surprise Strike against a seasoned 10th-Level Soldier would still try to 'pass a fast one' but be unfortunately outmatched due to how Skills work with Heroic levels. The Soldier's Initiative would still be higher than the Scoundrels so even though the Scoundrels may try the Soldier, those low level Scoundrels are likely to be too slow to be a real threat).

Ambush Specialist
If you are not Surprised on the first round of combat in an encounter, you can treat the first round of combat as if it were the Surprise Round for the purposes of Talents and Feats that trigger only during the Surprise Round. Additionally, during the Surprise Round as a Free Action you can designate a target as your Prime Target. You gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls against your Prime Target until the end of the encounter.

I agree that Ambush Specialist does allow the 'first round' of combat to be like a Surprise Round but I don't believe that it's only if there was NOT a Surprise Round. There would not be a reason to state "If you're not Surprised on the first round of combat" then because you can only be Surprised or not Surprised in the Surprise Round. Also from the way the wording is phrased, the rules also state "additionally" as if these two effects can happen together, not separately.

That said, I believe the clearer wording of Ambush Specialist would be: "If you are not Surprised in the Surprise Round," because without acting in the Surprise Round, you can not gain the benefits treating the first round of combat as the Surprise Round as well.

(It's also important to note in the rules for the Surprise Round, I've underlined and bolded the second example that states at the end: "After the Surprise Round, the first regular Round of combat begins)."

I'd like to support my claim again with rules for abilities in other scenarios:

Commander's Prerogative

Prerequisite: Trained in Initiative

During the first round of combat in an encounter (After the Surprise Round, if any), you can take your turn before any of your allies, but you must use either the Share Talent Prestige Class ability or a Talent from one of the following Talent Trees as part of your turn: Commando Talent Tree, Leadership Talent Tree, or Military Tactics Talent Tree. On the subsequent round, you return to your normal place in the Initiative Order.

Now what purpose does it serve to restate: "(After the Surprise Round, if any)," if the first round of combat didn't involve the Surprise Round specifically when Surprise Rounds occur?

Spring the Trap
If you and all your allies roll higher Initiative checks to start combat than do all your opponents, you automatically gain a Surprise Round, even if the opponents are aware of you when combat begins.

I don't understand your reasoning for Spring the Trap not being used as a way to ensure/increase the probability of, gaining a Surprise Round. It's in plain text. Making the claim that it's better used for NPCs is an opinion--and you're entitled to that. However, there are players that convene before character creation that can agree to take Initiative training and/or Skill Focus: Initiative and/or be a DEX based hero to increase the odds of capitalizing on Spring the Trap like any NPCs or even better imo.

It's also important to note that Spring the Trap does not grant allies a Surprise Round, only the one(s) with the Talent.

EDIT: fixed some wordings