TheSagaContinues

When it comes to someone like Vader who is often seen as "the best" at pretty much everything you REALLY need to curb your expectation.  Best is really a relative term and if you write Vader up as a 19th-level heroic character it shouldn't take much be seem like "the best" if you compare him to much lower level opposition.  This can be an issue with a number of characters but is especially apparent with Vader when it should be clear that if you build character specialized in some field it'll match Vader's given abilities much earlier.

That said when you look at a character like Vader who is supposed to be great at many things I really do believe the best thing is to figure out a more basic build that you could use across all versions but then leave plenty of blanks to specialize him more for certain roles you want to use him in.  In many ways you could see this done in the Star Wars Miniatures skirmish game where it seems like there are a dozen Vader miniatures; most of these figures all share certain features that could let you draw a baseline but then you may boost those or more commonly add other abilities to flesh out the Vader for some specific task and point value within the game.  This seems to be what you're looking at although I'll again note that the Vader in the situation you are looking at is probably many levels higher than the opposition.

When it comes to determining the CL of a ship with a custom/unique pilot I see three ways of doing it:

1.  Base Ship CL + crew CL:  This actually seems to be the standard method as seen by stock crews where Normal is NH1, Skilled are NH3, Elites are NH7, and Ace quality is likely NH12 to 13.  If you're new crew is built more for vehicle operations this certainly could be the method to use.

2.  Crew CL + half ship base CL:  In many ways this is intended to work with the CL reduction that enemies take based on the PC's vehicles as mentioned in SotG.  The idea here is simply that if the PCs are fighting someone in equivalent vehicles then the vehicles should cancel each other out.

3.  Ship base CL + 1/3 new crew character level round down:  If you are looking at a Nonheroic crew this actually should be equivalent to option 1!  When looking at hero types I'd use this more for characters who have little business operating a vehicle but because of the heroic damage bonus and possible use of heroic level instead of a ship's armor value they could still add value to the ship.

Which of these is right?  There's no clear answer although this should certainly help you find a range where you could adjust what is actually used based on just how vehicle focused a character is.


I might remind you that Double/Triple Attack (heavy) really don't do a Fighter PILOT much good as they still need to spend a Move Action controlling the ship and thus rarely have a full round action to use those feats.  Also remember that the heroic damage bonus comes in BEFORE the multiplier so a level 19 Vader would be dealing +18 (could make it +19) damage with a x2 weapon system on each attack.

I've got to run for now but if I remember I'll come back and give you some thoughts on how to alter Vader's book stat block to give you a "Fighter Pilot" version of him.

Things that would raise his power.

Burst Fire for more damage.

Starship Manuvers, how could he otherwise be the best?

Maybe some talent for Jury-rigging. He already knew how when he was a kid.

Maybe a level of Elite Trooper for Controlled Burst.

I am mostly on board with StevenO's views.

But can't you make Darth Vader much better game mechanically by giving him a bunch of talents that allow him to use his UTF modifier for... well most everything.  Starting with pilot for this, and initiative and perception to start.

Welcome.

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at in the comment but I never argue for simply "giving a bunch of talents" to some character but rather "leaving options open to fill as needed for some specific role."

I know there are people who push how "powerful" the Jedi are because they don't need trained skills as they have all of those talents available to utilize UtF with many Skills.  That can help some when you push your UtF to an extreme level and would want the same for many skills but talent slots are a little harder to come by than Trained Skills or just feats.  There's a big opportunity cost associated with dropping talents for those Skill Substitutions.


Edit:  Reread post.  If "giving him" just means "here are a bunch of freebies" then any character can get better when given a bunch of free talents.  I'm not such a huge fan of the "skill substitution talents" to begin with and don't believe they'll make a character better at some given role.  Now Vader's UtF mod may be higher than his Pilot mod would be just training the skill but that isn't the only thing that would make for a good pilot character.

The fact force users are markedly more powerful than other PCs is great for simulating the movies but dreadful for balancing PCs against each other.

This is a place you can get a lot of push back for that as Force Users are NOT "markedly more powerful" than other characters although there are certainly things that can push them that way. The biggest of those is often the (ab)use of Skill vs. Defense which Force Powers often utilize; generally cited as SWSE's biggest problem it is also most evident at low levels while at the highest levels it may turn the other way in part because of other things with extremely high level characters.  Force Users also generally do better when stats are higher and really enjoy a number of freebies some think they should get.  When it comes to game play generous interpretations of what things (like Move Object) do helps overpower Force Users as do tendencies in adventure building that seem to minimize the value of trained skills and where it seems almost ever fight is within "Jedi range" when there should be situations melee and Force Powers really can't touch an opponent.  Now I've said all of this before so you may know much of it but I'm repeating it anyway.

Honestly, Vader probably should NOT be seen as "the best pilot in the galaxy" and certainly shouldn't be built that way.  There is a min/max (fighter) pilot's guide on here somewhere and if you subscribe to everything it says in there that could lead you to the best min/max fighter pilot character you could make in the game.  That character is not Darth Vader who should be far more versatile than the character who devoted every single option they have to something that benefits their ability to run a fighter even if it has no other uses.  At what point do you stop making "Darth Vader" and instead move to "making the best pilot in the galaxy"?  Vader should be good enough at some things that he really shouldn't be seen at that level but there should be some version of him that might seem like it should.

StevenO- It seems my last post wasn't clear.  Be kind, it is my first post and we Sith lords have to stick together.

I did see that so my apologies if I wasn't the most welcoming.  While you might find "the new guy" to be pretty alright sometimes you step into thing where these is some confusion and possibly even some things going on that aren't always clear.  Making "the best" of anything is always subject to a good bit of interpretation but when you try adopting a Mary Sue character (someone who seems to be "the best" at everything) you run into a mess of other issues.  You can NOT make Vader "the best pilot in the galaxy" even allowing for differences in that definition at some given CL unless you are also giving up some of the other things that makes Vader VADER.  Now I'm all for giving certain Iconic characters stat blocks more appropriate for the role they are being used for but I always want to establish some kind of base level to make sure we still have the character right; if you shoot Vader down (or you go down) and then someone lands to finish off the job I have no intentions on suddenly switching character builds then so that you had to face Vader-Ace of the Empire in the fighter but now face Vader-Sword of the Empire before switching to Vader-leader of the Empire when he takes command of some unit of Elite Stormtrooper that have landed to help.  On any give day you'd only fight one of these Vaders even if he needed to take on the role of one of the others.

As for those Skill Substitution talents when it comes to making "the best pilot" the only one that matters would be Force Pilot.  Vehicle Initiative is already covered by the Pilot skill and when it comes to Perception you're almost certainly going to be using Sensors for that which is Use Computer.  When you do an extreme min/max build there is always that dance between trained skills, feats, and talents (and a bit of what to do with ability scores) and if building a Force User Ace the talents may not be the most critical thing so you spend them on those substitutions instead of buying things that would be far more useful outside of the cockpit.  Block and Deflect do nothing for the Pilot so Vader-Pilot doesn't need them but is it really right not having either in that build?

See that use of Mind Trick might just be considered an over extension of the power which is why Jedi can be broken.  They are the biggest (ab)users of Skill vs. Defense (which also touches Mind Trick) which is RAW so there is that.

As for building a non-Force user who could crush Vader in space and on the ground that maybe isn't as hard as you think when you consider how many things will carry over from ground to vehicle combat.  Vader as a Pilot and Vader on the ground generally have very little overlap in ability however my heavy weapon guy might still be pretty capable in a vehicle yet he still get to use most of those feats/talents that improve his space combat with his weapons while he is on the ground.  It may not take much to make a good pilot but the question can often be how much of what carries over from one area to another.