TheSagaContinues

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:51:02 am

As Snowtrooper and Sandtrooper armor are both priced at 18,000 credits, it would be a good guess that Radtrooper and EVO-trooper armor would cost the same. They are all environmentally adapted ST armors after all. With the huge bonus to Fort Defense, Radtrooper armor would definitely be worth it!

Ok. Why are they listed as 8000 cr in the index? I wonder where that price came from.

The EVO-armor is marked (as stormtrooper armor, +6 armor...), so giving it the price of basic ST armor is a good first choice. But thinking about it that +10 bonus is pretty powerful if poisons are used.

Another armor that has too low price is the Darth Vader custom armor, a armored flightsuit with +8 to Reflex defence. Pricing that at 4,000 credits is just crazy! I don't think his armor or anything like it should be for sale on the open market. 25,000 credits, Illegal, Rare, that would be better, but even that may be low...
 

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:51:02 am

If you give me the heads up, maybe I will look into that Sith Alchemy tab we have been discussing earlier.

Refresh my memory, what was the Sith Alchemy tab?

That was a tab we discussed that would contain all the different options that the talent Sith Alchemy Specialist talent grant when making a alchemical item. It would contain the same info as table 1-1 on page 22 of JATM. There may be other options included as well, as those granted by Cause Mutation on page 21 of the same book.

 

Quote from: richterbelmont10 on April 01, 2014, 02:20:59 pm

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:51:02 am

As Snowtrooper and Sandtrooper armor are both priced at 18,000 credits, it would be a good guess that Radtrooper and EVO-trooper armor would cost the same. They are all environmentally adapted ST armors after all. With the huge bonus to Fort Defense, Radtrooper armor would definitely be worth it!

Ok. Why are they listed as 8000 cr in the index? I wonder where that price came from.

The EVO-armor is marked (as stormtrooper armor, +6 armor...), so giving it the price of basic ST armor is a good first choice. But thinking about it that +10 bonus is pretty powerful if poisons are used.

Ok so the 8000 cr was just a “best-guess” cost? It didn’t come from a game dev or clarification? If we’re going to house-rule a cost, we should use Excel Comments (boxes) like I usually do for house rules.
 

Another armor that has too low price is the Darth Vader custom armor, a armored flightsuit with +8 to Reflex defence. Pricing that at 4,000 credits is just crazy! I don't think his armor or anything like it should be for sale on the open market. 25,000 credits, Illegal, Rare, that would be better, but even that may be low...

Where did this 4000 cr come from? How many of the costs in the Index are “best guesses” like these? These should be fixed in order to make them more in line with the actual rules.
 

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:51:02 am

If you give me the heads up, maybe I will look into that Sith Alchemy tab we have been discussing earlier.
 
Refresh my memory, what was the Sith Alchemy tab?

That was a tab we discussed that would contain all the different options that the talent Sith Alchemy Specialist talent grant when making a alchemical item. It would contain the same info as table 1-1 on page 22 of JATM. There may be other options included as well, as those granted by Cause Mutation on page 21 of the same book.

Ok. Are too many tabs? Should some be merged like "Use" and "Skill Uses 1.8"?
 

I'm always cautious when it comes to pricing ANYTHING and even if something is listed with a price I'm not always going to allow it at that price.  If you have an armor and it completely superior to another armor then it should cost more.

Maybe for the Index, we should leave the price blank if there’s no actual listed price in the books. Perhaps a Excel Comment can be added as a suggestion or house-rule. Thoughts?

I'm always cautious when it comes to pricing ANYTHING and even if something is listed with a price I'm not always going to allow it at that price.  If you have an armor and it completely superior to another armor then it should cost more.

I would say that pricing some things are easy, while others are hard. I'll give you 3 examples:

Scout trooper armor: This is easy, as on page 280 of SECR it is given like this; (+4; as combat jumpsuit with helmet package). So just add the cost of a combat jumpsuit (1,500 cr) with the cost of a helmet package (4,000 cr) to get the price of 5,500 credits. This would not be a house rule.

Storm commando armor: This is a bit harder, as it is given like this on page 123 of RECG; (+4; as combat jumpsuit with shadowskin and helmet package). Unless you have SaV handy to look up Shadowskin, you are out of luck. With that resource you know the price for shadowskin to be 5,000 credits, so just add that to the cost of the armor above for a grand total of 10,500 credits. This would not be a house rule, but this armor would not have a upgrade slot left as that is used for shadowskin. If you want this armor to retain its upgrade slot, I have no easy way to price that...

Swamp trooper armor: This is even harder, it is given like this on page 124 of RECG; (+4; as combat jumpsuit with helmet package), but in the text it is said that the armor is camoflaged to blend in with vegetation granting a +2 to stealth checks and it comes equipped with a rebreather for 1 hour underwater operation. The rebreather is equal to a breath mask from SECR, costing 200 credits. But what to do for the +2 stealth bonus? Well, we could use Superior tech to give it a +2 equipment bonus, and adding 4,000 to the base price. But I think that this would be more costly then necessary. I see this +2 bonus as a low tech version of shadowskin and I would price that at 2,000 credits and not require a upgrade slot. So the final price would be 7,700 credits (or 9,700 cr with Superior Tech) but either way I would call this a house rule.

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:32:52 pm

The EVO-armor is marked (as stormtrooper armor, +6 armor...), so giving it the price of basic ST armor is a good first choice. But thinking about it that +10 bonus is pretty powerful if poisons are used.

Ok so the 8000 cr was just a “best-guess” cost? It didn’t come from a game dev or clarification? If we’re going to house-rule a cost, we should use Excel Comments (boxes) like I usually do for house rules.

I have no idea, I did not price this armor. I'm just guessing that as the armor is stated to be "as stormtrooper armor", it was given the same price in the index by whoever put it in there.

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 01, 2014, 06:32:52 pm

Another armor that has too low price is the Darth Vader custom armor, a armored flightsuit with +8 to Reflex defence. Pricing that at 4,000 credits is just crazy! I don't think his armor or anything like it should be for sale on the open market. 25,000 credits, Illegal, Rare, that would be better, but even that may be low...

Where did this 4000 cr come from? How many of the costs in the Index are “best guesses” like these? These should be fixed in order to make them more in line with the actual rules.

Looks like someone just slapped the same price tag as on armored flightsuit on this one. The problem with pricing this is that there is no easy way to make a armored flightsuit with +8 to Ref Def... I could come up with a way to do it starting from trooper armor, but that would definitely be a house rule.
 

Maybe for the Index, we should leave the price blank if there’s no actual listed price in the books. Perhaps a Excel Comment can be added as a suggestion or house-rule. Thoughts?

I think that anything that can be given a price per the rules, as the storm commando armor, should have a listed price in the Index.

Any item that is unique like Darth Vaders armor should be listed without a price or clearly stating that it is a best approximation or guess. I would be happy to have a price listed for EVO and Radtrooper armor, but once again it would have to be a estimated price. This should be clearly stated.

There are no "guesses" in the Index. If a price is listed, it's because a line got copied over, as in "as stormtrooper armor"

The Index is not perfect and if someone wants to change their own version, feel free. Why get nitpicky?  If it's just a general discussion, fine, but a couple posts seem like house ruling now or speculation.

Thanks for all the contributions for all the eagle eye'd users out there. There are errors, but not guesses.

All tabs have a use. Just because one user doesn't see the use of a tab, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. JemyM and I have discussed tabs many times over the years. Some were started and then never gone back to in the books. Some tabs have been consolidated and maybe some are unnecessary, but maybe they can be moved down in the order, not eliminated or consolidated.

Thanks to Richter... for taking this project over, but 70% of the work is mine, 25% JemyM and 5% others like Majestic Moose and others (Richter, Merc etc).

Not a rant, not upset, just clarifying.

Shane

I'm sorry, I meant nitpicky as in those where minor and not very important fixes/suggestions.
Keep up the good work!

There are some guesses when stats are extracted from a statblock, especially when it comes to pricing. For example, Darth Vader's Custom Armor has the price listed at 4,000 cr in the Index. Just because the statblock says "as Armored Flight suit" doesn't mean that Darth Vader's Custom Armor costs the same as a flight suit. Also, both the Clone Trooper Armor and ARC Trooper Armor have the price listed at 8,000 cr in the Index. But that price is not listed anywhere in the books. I assume it comes from Stormtrooper armor. But it doesn't mean they are the same price.
 
The same goes with price of the Scout Trooper armor. It has the price listed at 5,500 cr in the Index. This is a simple calculation of "as Combat Jumpsuit (1,500 cr) with helmet package (4,000 cr)." However, Scout Trooper armor is more than just a combat jumpsuit and a helmet. It's specially developed military armor. So it's quite possibly more than 5,500 cr. This price is an assumption or estimate. These armors are more than simply the sum of its parts.

There are no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of differences between ARC Trooper Armor and Stormtrooper armor, but as far as the game goes there is no mechanical difference between them. They look different, but they grant the same benefits. Price would also variate wildly through different eras, but for the sake of simplicity the base price is kept static at 8,000 credits.

There is the same issue when comparing a Combat Jumpsuit with Scout Trooper armor. Mechanically they are the same, but they look different. The thing is, there are plenty of different models of Combat Jumpsuits in SAGA, but they all cost the same. Some are upgraded like the Scout Trooper armor, and then cost the base cost of the armor + the cost of the upgrade. This is not a house rule, this is not speculation, this how the game works. In reality, mass production, competition and cornering the market would affect the price down or up. But in SAGA, those things are most of the time left out of the game. Trying to predict the price of a specific armor taking all these factors into account, that would require speculation, guess work and assumptions. Let's not do that, as it is far too much work with a very small reward for all the work. 

Sure, I'm with you. There should definitely be a comment on these prices. The prices that are estimated should be marked as: Estimated, from comparison with other armors. (Insert whatever else instead of armors when needed.) The prices that can be calculated in a reasonable way, should be marked as: "Calculated, from the sum of its parts."

I'm just saying that there is a difference in precision between summing up the parts and making an estimate. Not making that distinction is a loss of information. We are collecting information, not making it go away.

Last but not least, my thanks to everyone that worked on these files and that includes you RB10!
If my contribution is 0.5% of this, I'm happy about that.

When reading Darth Vader's Armor entry on Wookiepedia you get the feel it was super highly modified.
Things like:
"This helmet had a raised ridge that ran from between his eyes to the back of his head, where it merged into the^[5] durasteel,^[11] obsidian,^[12] and plasteel^[13] of the helmet itself. In addition, it was also rumored that the helmet's already strong metallic hull had also been further strengthened via Dark Side alchemy, with the specific technique not being found in the database of the Rhinnal Medical Academy."
I see a bump in armor plating more than likely, maybe a houserules Armor Reinforcement accessory. A Darkside/Sith Alchemy upgrade also.

"This helmet locked into the mask,^[14] via a pressurized seal comparable in integrity to a Class C spacesuit.^[10] Besides protection, it also stuck needles into Vader's skin when fixed in place, which feed neurological data on brainwave activity to the central chest computer, and possessed radiator conduction pads were installed into the helmet as a means to allow excess heat to bleed through the metal surface."
I see Environmental Sealing, some sort of medical data computer plus maybe a reverse internal Environmental Systems... maybe for the internal heat.

"Vader wore a ribbed, padded, multi-ply body glove that covered everything below his neck. This flexible, quilted suit was blast-dampening, and was made of a fireproof material that provided some protection against flames and corrosive gasses. There was also a gasket within a suit that accesses the cartridge containing kouhunin chemicals to lessen Vader's perception of pain."
Some sort of Fire Resistance Armor Reinforcement or it is more Environmental Sealing and Systems. The chemicals some sort of house rule extra second wind free via the suit maybe.

"the right glove being a Mandalorian crushgaunt fitted around one of Lord Kaan's indestructible Sith amulets, and modified to include grip-augmentation circuitry.^[16][10] The gloves, or more accurately gauntlets, were also made of a Micronized Mandalorian iron weave to protect Vader against glancing lightsaber blows during the patient's physical therapy sparring sessions, as well as deflecting a direct hit from a blaster bolt.

I mean this one alone is a lot of stuff thrown in there, plus a magic item. Also just now reading this again for the first time in a couple of years. I see a possible alternate theory of Vader and the Han Solo shot that hit Vader's hand in Cloud City. Might not have been a Negate Energy Force Power use.
So going by just that and there is a lot more in the article, I would say you would need to properly represent the armor in game stats... and that would be very expensive. Would need at least 2 upgrade slots to then get the 10 Integrated pieces of equipment maybe even more than that.
Here is the link to the page if anyone wants to look it over.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader%27s_armor