Author Topic: Is This Player's Build Legal?  (Read 1060 times)

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Is This Player's Build Legal?
« on: June 28, 2020, 01:29:04 am »
<<I apologize if this is in the wrong spot. If it is, mods if you could move it please and thank you!>>

My DM has concerns that one of our players to our game is using his lack of DMing and dislike of confrontation to add things that his character shouldn't have. He's an expert on D&D 3.5 and 5e so our DM is just letting him act as the expert. Thing is when I attempt to reverse engineer the character I can't account for all the Feats. One thing is that our DM wants us to use both Backgrounds AND Destiny's. So that helped me find the skills. So if anyone can tell me if I'm just missing things or if the player is gaming the DM, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

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Medium Miraluka Noble 1 / Jedi 3
Background Technology; Destiny Discovery; DP 4
Init+10; Senses Perception+10 (Ignore Concealment & Cover)
Languages Basic, Miralukese, Binary, High Galactic, ???, ???

Defenses Fort+17, Ref+19 (FFooted+16), Will+20
HP 55; Force 7
Second Wind 14; Threshold 17

Speed 6 squares
Melee Double-Bladed Lightsaber+7 (2d8+3); or -3/-3 for Full-Round Action
Melee Stun Baton+6 (2d6+2)
Ranged Blaster Pistol+7 (3d6+2)
BAB+3; Grapple+3
Atk Options N/A
Special Actions N/A

Abilities Str 10 (0), Dex 17 (3), Con 14 (2), Int 14 (2), Wis 16 (3), Cha 21 (5)
Special Qualities Force Sight

Talents Block, Deflect, Wealthy

Feats Force Sensitive, Force Training (2), Linguist, Skill Focus (UtF), Weapon Focus (Lightsaber), WP (Lightsaber, Pistols, Simple)

Skills Acrobatics+10, Initiative+10, Galactic Lore+9, Mechanics+9, Perception+10, Persuasion+12,
Treat Injury+10, Use Computer+9, Use the Force+17

Force Powers Battle Strike, Enlighten, Force Grip, Force Slam, Mind Trick, Force Blast, Move Object, Negate Energy, Surge

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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 06:08:20 am »
There appears to be too many trained skills (if that's all that's listed) as 6 (Noble) +2 INT = 8 and I count 9.  Use of Backgrounds says *(&* CLASS SKILLS!!!

I see 9 Force Powers listed as well when Force Training x2 w/ WIS 16 should only give 8.

Ability scores are godlike and ILLEGAL.  With optimum advance advancement starting scores are 10, 18, 14, 12, 16, 20!  That 20 is NOT POSSIBLE.  Even dropping that down to 18 still leaves a point buy equivalent of 54 when expected stats should be 25-28 points.

Feats and Talents actually look possible.  THIS MAY BE THE ONLY LEGAL THING ON THE SHEET.

Attacking with both end of a double bladed lightsaber would incur -10 penalties on BOTH attacks.  This means his normal +4 attack with a lightsaber (+3 BAB +1 Focus) now becomes -6/-6.

Hitpoints are unusually high.  They're +8 what I'd normally use and some consider my uses of fixed hp/HD to be very generous.

REF = 10 + 1 class + 4 level +3 DEX = 18/15 so that's too high. WILL is the same but w/ +2 class and WIS = 19.

DON'T use Backgrounds and Destiny...

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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 10:16:43 am »
My apologies, looking back I should’ve been a little more clear on a few points. I’ll try to respond to each of them. That said, thank you very much for taking a look here, it’s greatly appreciated!

There appears to be too many trained skills (if that's all that's listed) as 6 (Noble) +2 INT = 8 and I count 9.  Use of Backgrounds says *(&* CLASS SKILLS!!!
Ah, the DM misinterpreted that as being you added the bonus Skill directly to your list of known Skills. I’ll let him know that that’s wrong.

I see 9 Force Powers listed as well when Force Training x2 w/ WIS 16 should only give 8.
I screwed the pooch on this one. We’re playing through Dawn of Defiance, and last adventure he gave him Force Blast, presumably because the adventure told him to, but I won’t look through the book to confirm that.

Ability scores are godlike and ILLEGAL.  With optimum advance advancement starting scores are 10, 18, 14, 12, 16, 20!  That 20 is NOT POSSIBLE.  Even dropping that down to 18 still leaves a point buy equivalent of 54 when expected stats should be 25-28 points.
Oh yeah, the 20. I forgot about that completely. He told the DM that he found another source that claimed that Miralukan’s got a +2 to Cha instead of Int. Good to know that he was full of it since I couldn’t find anything else on it.
As to the rest of it, there’s only 3 of us playing, and I think our DM allowing the other player (his wife) to “roll” as well (her stats are worse than his), and because there’s only 3 of us and he’s not reducing any of the CR’s for the fights is the reason he’s allowing their crazy high stats. I’ve already pointed it out, but at this point more than anything I feel foolish having done the Point Buy myself lol.

Feats and Talents actually look possible.  THIS MAY BE THE ONLY LEGAL THING ON THE SHEET.
That’s where my math gets a little wonky. So from what I’m seeing, he’d get the following Feats:
Miralucan Racial: Force Training
Noble 1: Linguist, WP (Pistols), WP (Simple)
Level 1: Skill Focus (UtF)
Jedi 1: Force Sensitive
Jedi 2: WP (Lightsaber)
Level 3: Force Training
That would Weapon Focus (Lightsaber) as not being valid. Am I right on this or is there another Feat source that I’m missing here?

Attacking with both end of a double bladed lightsaber would incur -10 penalties on BOTH attacks.  This means his normal +4 attack with a lightsaber (+3 BAB +1 Focus) now becomes -6/-6.
I’m seeing on his Roll20 sheet (which I only have access to because the DM wanted me to look things over) that his Double-Bladed Lightsaber Attack is +7 as a base due to the Mod being Dex and not Str (which is where the -3/-3 comes from). He should only get that with Weapon Finesse correct? I don’t see that listed on his sheet at all.

Hitpoints are unusually high.  They're +8 what I'd normally use and some consider my uses of fixed hp/HD to be very generous.
Probably dumb of me to give the benefit of the doubt to him here, but just this once I think I’ll give it to him.

REF = 10 + 1 class + 4 level +3 DEX = 18/15 so that's too high. WILL is the same but w/ +2 class and WIS = 19.
Shouldn’t Ref be:
10 + Heroic Level (4) + Dex (3) + Class Bonus (1) = 18
Will makes sense, thanks!

DON'T use Backgrounds and Destiny...
Already tried that, but I’m just ice skating uphill. It’s the DMs call and he says it’s how he evens out there only being 3 of us (I guess along with the stats lol).

Again, thanks for all the help you’ve already given me, and for any other Qs I have that you may answer. I’m still very new to Saga and I’m trying to learn as fast as I can. So your (and everyone’s) help is a big…well, help!


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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 12:58:04 pm »
Had to get to work before so I didn't spend quite enough time.

Damage: 2d8+3 is too high.  It'd get a +2 bonus from heroic level 4 but that's it.  There's no STR bonus to add to damage.

As for Feats I see them going as such:  1st level = WP-Simple & Pistol, Linguist(noble) Force Sensitivity (1st lvl) Force Training (Miraluka conditional);  2nd level = WP-lightsaber (multiclass into Jedi); 3rd level = Skill Focus-UtF (Jedi Bonus), Force Training (3rd); 4th-none.  OOPS!!!   I guess you're right; there is no Room for Weapon Focus anywhere in that build.  I guess that in my haste I misread Jedi 3 as Jedi4 which would have given another bonus feat....   SHAME ON ME... :(

Skills:  I know we're saying **** of to class skills but with that list I wonder which Background give access to both Acrobatics and Mechanics?  Heck, it appears that's illegal even even using Backgrounds.

SORRY, but  DO NOT GET TO USE DEX for you double-blade lighter.  I'd argue you should even be able to get DEX on that attack but I don't even need to have that argument as the character doesn't have Weapon Finesse which would allow it to apply DEX to a lightsaber.  The further argument that I'd make is that a DOUBLE-BLADED lightsaber is not the same as a "lightsaber" mentioned in Weapon Finesse as it's a "large, two-handed weapon" but what the **** do I know.

When it comes to attack bonus this character should have a +3 BAB.  That is ALL that will apply to any melee attacks made.  The ranged attacks would get +3 from DEX bringing that Pistol attack to +6.  The "fighting style" I'd be using with this character is a blaster pistol in one hand to use to make my attacks and then a lightsaber in the other hand to use almost exclusively as a "shield" via the Block/Deflect talents.  Now I guess some of the attack value discrepancy could come from Equipment bonus via Tech Specialist upgrades.

It seem someone may be confusing 5e with SAGA.  If I can just use DEX for my melee attacks without needing to spend any feats on it why am I ever going to bother putting a good ability score into STR?

I think I've already covered all the problems with using GOD stats such as these.  That "oh I remember seeing them get +2 CHA somewhere" is really convenient.  If someone insists on running the DoD with just three characters my suggestion is to BOOST THEIR LEVEL instead of giving them the stealth level increases that screw up how the game is supposed to be balanced.

Now for the hitpoints:  I guess they technically do fall within the "legal range" but I'll note that the chances of rolling them (or better!) are 4/1000 or 0.4%  I probably go on about how using MAXIMUM HIT POINTS screws up game balance and expectation but I suspect that falls on more deaf ears.  With bigger hp sinks that makes normal damage mean less and less while anything that targets the Condition Track becomes much more important; even slightly lower than average hp works the other way as getting hit may drain a character's hp total faster than the CT could go down but with maximum hp targeting the CT can have a greater effect.

As for those Defense Scores the "error" is pretty obvious:  He's just adding ALL of the class bonuses to Defense together.  Instead of taking the better of the Jedi and Noble Scores he's just adding them together.  It's wrong but doing this will make Multiclassing INSANE especially once PrC are hit.

It may be worth noting that Miraluka still don't get to ignore TOTAL Cover or Concealment.

Now the player who made this character may be an "expert" in DnD 5e and 3.5 but as far as a SWSE character goes I give this one an F although when graded "on a curve because no one can ever fail" it looks like it'll get a C.

Now you haven't asked but my response to this "game" would be "let's play with normal character expectations but run two characters each.  This lets us learn things twice as fast and it also means that if one character goes down we've still got one to keep going with."
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 05:18:30 pm by StevenO »
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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2020, 01:48:47 pm »
Right, here's how I see it. I'm assuming stats 10, 17, 14, 13, 16, 20 at first level with INT and CHA being bumped at 4th.

[Edited]

L1 Noble 1
Skills - Acrobatics is not a class skill. Mechanics from Background. The others are fine.
Feats - WP Simple, WP Pistols and Linguist from Class. Force Sensitivity from level.
Talent - Wealth.
Languages - Binary, High Galactic and 1 other.
Force Training - 4 powers.

L2 Jedi 1
Feat - Multiclass WP Lightsabers.
Talent - Block.

L3 Jedi 2
Feats - Skill Focus (UtF) and WF Lightsabers.

L4 Jedi 3
Bump INT and CHA. The player can now train in Acrobatics.
Talent - Deflect.
Language - 1 extra.

Force Training can only be taken once.

As StevenO pointed out the ability scores and HP are excessive and the attack bonuses are incorrect. The lightsaber is +4 for a single attack, +3 Stun baton, +6 blaster pistol. Defenses are Ref 18 (15 flat-footed), Fort 17, Will 19.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 03:20:17 pm by sparky22 »

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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2020, 02:50:51 pm »
Right, here's how I see it. I'm assuming stats 10, 17, 14, 13, 16, 20 at first level with INT and CHA being bumped at 4th.
...

That's worse than I assume and would be DOUBLE Illegal as Miraluka suffer -2 DEX so the max starting value would be 16 (18-2).

No point starting with an odd INT when class skills don't matter.  He could train UtF at 1st-level when taking Force Sensitivity at 1st-level.
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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 03:10:16 pm »
Right, here's how I see it. I'm assuming stats 10, 17, 14, 13, 16, 20 at first level with INT and CHA being bumped at 4th.
...

That's worse than I assume and would be DOUBLE Illegal as Miraluka suffer -2 DEX so the max starting value would be 16 (18-2).

No point starting with an odd INT when class skills don't matter.  He could train UtF at 1st-level when taking Force Sensitivity at 1st-level.

I forgot the Force Sensitive feat did that.

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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2020, 04:42:42 pm »

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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2020, 06:48:27 pm »
....

I forgot the Force Sensitive feat did that.

As Rookseven presented the character in the his second post it couldn't be done anyway as it would somehow be taking Skill Focus (UtF) before even being trained in UtF and having Force Sensitivity.

When it comes to feats it certainly has one to many but as long as Force Sensitive is taken at 1st-level any two of Force Training, Skill Focus, or Weapon Focus can work to go with the conditional Force Training it gets from Miraluka

You do demonstrate how it could gain Acrobatics and Mechanics (one with Background and one with INT boost after multiclassing) but as I mentioned the ability scores presented to not support that.  DEX and CHA HAD TO BE the stats boosted at 4th-level as 16 is a Miraluka's max starting DEX and CHA 21 is of course impossible for a 4th-level Miraluka.  I know that when it comes to trained skills my advice is to find the class that gives you at least most of what you but if it's missing one skill you start with an odd INT score, multiclass, and pick it up at 4th-level with an Int bump.
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Re: Is This Player's Build Legal?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2020, 02:59:31 am »
I'm currently in a pretty good Dawn game and you really want to stick to the 28 point buy.  Our GM gave the 2 Jedi Pistol group and even that was a bit unbalancing, but for a different reason.  Mainly the Jedi refused to tank with sabers and even use force powers.  This placed all fire on our noble while I ran attacks in the hallway(s).  We only survived by the grace of a scout (me) who knows how to use smoke grenades and R9 canisters (something made after the module...so kinda cheaty).  By the time of the first real "dungeon" I just relented and picked up a survelliance scanner so the Jedi don't need to worry about sabers and powers out.