TheSagaContinues

The base CL 4 Elite Trooper:
NH8/Soldier1/EliteTrooper1
STR 12, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8, (+6 remaining, up to +4 in any one)
BAB: +8;  Defenses:  REF 18(16)*, FORT 17, WILL 11;  hp 49
Feats:  AP (light, medium), Martial Arts I, Point Blank Shot:  +2 starting feats, +2 General Feats
Talents:  1 from Armor Specialist, Weapon Specialist, Commando, or Mercenary (FU), +1 from Elite Trooper
Trained Skills:  Any one except UtF
Equipment:  Combat Jumpsuit (+4 armor) because an ET is going to wear armor until heroic level dictates otherwise.

This build is using the non-heroic (average) stats equivalent to PB 15 and then includes a total of +3 in level boosts with no more that +2 in any stat.  You can get a 16 with it but should stop there.  Hit points are calculated using fixed hp/HD equal to 2/3 or 3/4 max (depending on how you round) hp for each level; this means I'm giving 3 hp/level in Nonheroic, 7 for Soldier, and 8 for ET plus the CON bonus of course.  With only 2 heroic levels and all of these armor feats this character REALLY should be wearing armor; I included the basic Combat Jumpsuit here but really would expect 'trooper armor or medium battle armor in most cases.

This build also uses NH8 which is counted as CL2.  Now NH6 is also counted as CL2 and stepping up to NH8 may give the biggest variation in power (BAB and hp/HD) you'll find in a single Challenge level equivalent.  It may not be spelled out anywhere in the books but it takes 3 full levels of NH for a +1 CL (basically +1 CL for each additional feat it earns) so NH6 and NH8 are both CL2 despite one being a good bit stronger.  A future post will talk about pulling back the levels in NH but we need the +6 BAB from NH8 to go with Soldier's +1 to reach +7 so it stays.  If facing stronger (higher level) PCs this little bit extra at CL2 does help the NPC present itself as a challenge.

Now what you should notice is that this basic build still leaves 7 "slots" to fill although the Soldier talent is somewhat restricted.  Starting with feats we're figuring that AP (light and medium) in the ET requirements are coming as starting feats from Non-heroic and possibly Soldier which leaves two starting feats, most likely for Non-heroic, which will likely provide the character with it's Weapon Proficiency and possibly Skill Training/Focus if it doesn't want/need the weapon proficiencies.  As a 10th-level character this would start with four general feats but two of those go for the ET requirements leaving you with two general feats that could be spent on most anything.  Unless feats/talents dictate specifics this build doesn't require any specific trained skill so the skill is left unassigned.  With the talents you need the Soldier talent to meet the ET entry requirements but the ET talent can be any it qualifies for.

Now where to go with this base?  Here are some examples:

Spoiler: Autofire builds (hover to show)

Autofire Suppression Specialist: 
STR 14, DEX 14; CON 14
Feats:  WP(Simple, Heavy), WF-heavy, Autofire Sweep
Talents:  Improved Suppression Fire, Controlled Burst
Equipment:  Battle Armor (+8 armor, +2 FORT, 16kg/7k), HRB (12kg/4k), Power Generator (15kg/750cr), Utility Belt (4kg/500 cr) :: 47/49kg load & 12,250 credits
Defense:  REF 23(20), FORT 20, WILL 11;  speed 4; hitpoints 59
Ranged Attack:  +9 HRP (3d10+1) Area 6 square cone, enemies in area take -2 on attacks
Unarmed:  +10 (1d6+3)

Autofire Suppression Specialist v2, high DEX: 
STR 14, DEX 16;
Feats:  WP(Simple, Heavy), WF-heavy, Autofire Sweep
Talents:  Improved Suppression Fire, Controlled Burst
Equipment:  Trooper Armor (+6 armor, +2 FORT, 10kg/8k), HRB (12kg/4k), Power Generator (15kg/750cr), Utility Belt (4kg/500 cr) :: 41/49kg load & 13,250 credits
Defense:  REF 22(18), FORT 19, WILL 11; speed 6; hp 49
Ranged Attack:  +10 HRP (3d10+1 cone Area + enemies in aread take -2 on attacks)
Unarmed:  +10 (1d6+3)

Autofire Damage Dealer: 
STR 14, DEX 16;
Feats:  WP(Rifle, Heavy), Precise Shot, Burst Fire
Talents:  Indomitable, Controlled Burst
Equipment:  Trooper Armor (+6 armor, +2 FORT, 10kg/8k), HRB (12kg/4k), Power Generator (15kg/750cr), Utility Belt (4kg/500 cr) :: 41/49kg load & 13,250 credits
Defense:  REF 22(18), FORT 19, WILL 11; speed 6; hp 49
Ranged Attack:  +9 HRP (3d10+1 area or 5d10+2 single target w/ Burst Fire)
Unarmed:  +10 (1d6+3)

Now Autofire Sweep is actually very sick depending on what template you use for it; I've got house rules in the works for it but sufficient to say it covers a MASSIVE area in which the first pair of this group suppresses with Improved Suppression Fire to give them all -2 on their attack even if they don't suffer any damage.  This group is all utilizing Controlled Burst from ET to reduce the attack penalty from autofire which will help them deal damage.  The damage dealer is trading the control aspect for the single shot potential of Burst Fire which can be very helpful if an attack needs to be aimed to avoid cover as the cover means the attack needs to hit REF anyway for any damage.

Spoiler: Bodyguard (hover to show)

CON 16, WIS 10
Feats:  WP(??), Skill training (Endurance), Never Surrender (GaW), Stay Up (S&V)
Talents:  Harm's Way, Bodyguard's Sacrifice (LE-41)
Skills:  Initiative +11, Endurance +13
Equipment:  Battle Armor (16kg/7k), Energy Shield SR20 (KotoR - 1kg/8k cr)
Defense:  REF 22(20), FORT 21, WILL 12; speed 4; hp 69; SR 20 vs Energy
Attack by Weapon at +9

Still need to pick a weapon with this one or could pick another skill.  May also drop to 'trooper armor for more mobility.  In any event this is the kind of character you could put beside almost any other character and essentially give that character an additional 70 hitpoints.  A load of hp for the CL and plenty of resistance to damage.  Harm's Way requires planning but can make sure shots go toward this elite bodyguard instead of the charge; Bodyguard's Sacrifice is there to make sure he can take the damage even if he can't activate Harm's Way and also to cover the things that might get around Harm's Way for damage.  For the extra feats Never Surrender will give this character a chance to soak a shot that would drop it to zero hitpoints; Stay Up is a way to make sure that shot dealt little enough that Endurance has a good chance of working with Never Surrender.  Take Second Wind when you get the chance and remember that Delay Damage can keep you protecting your charge even after you should be dead.

Spoiler: Melee Charger (hover to show)

STR 16, DEX 14
Feats:  WP-(AMW, simple), Powerful Charge, Fleche (GoI - 1/enc roll 17+ on charge = crit)
Talents:  Mercenary's Grit (swift, change CT penalty to bonus for 1 round then move down CT), +1 from ET (Crit Master-FU or Melee Spec - CW)
Equipment:  VibroAxe
Defenses:
Melee Attack: +11 VibroAxe (2d10+7)
Melee Attack: Charge +15 VibroAxe (2d10+12) -2 REF. Crit on 17+

Want to make the primitive tribesmen dangerous?  Here's one wy.  You can vary the weapon and also add more armor but charge in with +15 on the attack that's got chance against MUCH higher level hero and the damage shouldn't be ignored.  Fleche makes the charge that much more dangerous as crits come more easily.  The talents are little up in the air but Merc's Grit was taken to really stick any CT penalties this might get to the PCs.  When it comes to the ET talent there were so many that dealt with criticals making them more dangerous but it's also a strong melee option.

Spoiler: Rifleman (hover to show)

DEX 16, WIS 10
Feats: WP(simple, rifle), WF -Rifle, Riflemaster
Talents:  Devastating Attack (Rifle), Improved Weapon Focus (Rifle)
Equipment:  Trooper Armor, Heavy Blaster Rifle (6kg/2k), Bayonet (1kg/50), Utility Belt :: 21/36 kg load & 10,800 cr
Defenses:  REF 22(18), FORT 19, WILL 12; speed 6; hp 49
Ranged Attack:  +13 HBR (3d12+1)  Treat target's DT at -5
Melee Attack:  +9 Bayonet (1d8+3)

Perhaps your most basic "Elite Trooper" as this guy really isn't out to do anything fancy but just layout hurt with a rifle.  You could move feats/talents around depending on what you want but if you want someone who just shoots with a good bonus for high damage this works.

Spoiler: Field Medic/Surgeon (pre-Medic?) (hover to show)

WIS 12*, any +2
Feats:  Starting feat*, Skill Focus (Treat Injury) , Surgical Expertise, Experienced Medic (surgery on INT mod/min2)
Talents:  Indomitable, Strength in Numbers (+2 DR if within 10 of ally)
Skills:  Treat Injury +16,
Equipment:  Med-gear, armor with integrated equipment.
Unarmed Attack: +9 (1d6+2)

Probably not the first thing you think of when you think Elite Trooper.  While the Bodyguard can soak/prevent damage this guy can heal damage very efficiently.  He's got an open starting feat for a weapon if he carries one otherwise it might be another trained skill.  With his surgical skills he can patch up a number of allies pretty quickly.  Indomitable is taken so he can be sure he's a the top of his game when it's time to heal while Strength in Numbers helps him stay going despite nuisance fire.

Spoiler: Explosives Expert (pre-Saboteur) (hover to show)

INT 14
Feats:  WP-simple, Skill Focus-Mechanics, +2 General
Talents:  Demolitionist (+2D on set explosives), Mandalorian Advance (1/enc move speed before acting)
Skills:  Mechanics +17, Use Computer +12, Deception +9
Equipment:  Explosives!!!

Boom, boom!  Haven't really worked a lot on what general feats work well but the talents help a bunch.  Mandalorian Advance was taken to enable him to get close to a place he wants to place an explosive but wants to minimize his time there; the talent will let him move out there before using the Full Round action to place an explosive or disarm one if needed.

Spoiler: Future advancements? (hover to show)

Pre-Gladiator
Feats:  WP (AMW), Improved Damage Threshold, +1 start, +1 gen

Pre-Gunslinger
Feats:  WP(Pistol), Precise Shot, Quickdraw, +1start

Pre-Officer
Trained Skill:  Knowledge (tactics)
Talents:  Any Commando

These stubs are just showing how this CL4 build can already have all the requirements lines up for entry into a couple OTHER PrCs.  You may also notice that some of these do NOT overlap and you could me the requirements for Officer and one of the +4 REF Classes with the CL4 build.

Additions:

Spoiler: Vehicle builds (hover to show)

Ace Pilot build
STR 8, DEX 16, CON 8, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats:  WP-Heavy, Skill Focus-Pilot, Vehicle Combat, Burst Fire*/Weapon Focus-heavy
Talent:  Devastating Attack*/Weapon Specialization (heavy),Controlled Burst/Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy)
Skills:  Pilot +18, Mechanics +12, Use Computer +12
Equipment:  Armored (+5) or Padded (+3) Flight suit.  Starfighter*
Vehicle Attack w/ Pilot weapon - Automatic Weapon option:  +8 [(by weapon +2D +1)x multiplier] treat target DT as -5 less.
Vehicle Attack w/ Pilot weapon - Focus option:  +12 [(by weapon+3) x multiplier]

Vehicle Gunnery focus
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 8, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats:  WP-Heavy, Skill Focus-Use Computer*, Weapon Focus - Heavy, Double Attack-heavy/Burst Fire
Talent:  Weapon Specialization (heavy), Multi-Attack Proficiency-Heavy/Controlled Burst
Skills:  Pilot +12, Mechanics +12, Use Computer +17
Equipment:  Armored/padded flight suit.  vehicle gunner position*
Vehicle Attack - Automatic Weapon option:  +7 [(by weapon +2D +3)x multiplier]
Vehicle Attack - Double Attack option:  +7/+7 [(by weapon+3) x multiplier]
Vehicle Attack - standard: +9  [(by weapon+3) x multiplier]

These are specific variations on the normal CL 4 Elite Trooper intended for use in vehicle operations.  They do not specifically benefit from the standard reasons for wanting ET in your NPC build (that being Delay Damage & FORT) but rather point out some of the other reasons for taking the class.  The Pilot version is ready to enter Ace Pilot and shows a high damage version using Burst Fire/Controlled Burst and then the high accuracy version utilizing Weapon Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus.  The gunner version isn't as Ace Pilot ready (but could still serve as a good pilot or in another skill position) but instead looks at two ways to start boosting the vehicle damage potential; the burst fire option is the same as for the pilot except that it now benefits from Focus/Specialization (and if he were the pilot using the pilot controlled weapon it'd be +9) while the other is going with the multiple attack option which can be very strong on vehicles.  Neither of these stat blocks includes the vehicle's fire control/INT modifier or other modifiers from the vehicle.


Addition/Edit:  The vehicle versions may show a lower CON but for these examples I make the assumption that you want a character with more than a few hitpoints and thus the CON 12 assumption as a base line.  If you want more of a glass cannon type character you could start dropping CON and use those points to boost some other ability scores.  For each point lost in CON modifier you lost 10 hit points and -1 from the FORT/DT; at CON 8 you pick up 4 more points to spend in other abilities but drop to FORT 15 and hp 29.  If one figures average damage taken at 15 points a hit at CON 12 I'd figure you could take four hits and just be standing yet but going to CON 8 you now go down after just two hits; if that's what you're going for you might even expect them to withdraw after getting hit once.

Now if someone has comments I'd be interested in hearing them?  Disagreements or something you would want to see expanded on?  I know I don't go into the talents available to Elite Trooper or really those that could get you into the class but I'm figuring that there'll be something you could find to help fill your vision for the character you are creating.

A beauty of SWSE is how versatile things are even when they share so many components.  This example of using Elite Trooper for your NPCs, and I suppose you can draw some inspiration from part of it for your PCs, should really help show that.  You run into a group of NH8/Soldier1/ET1 opponents you may be surprised at all the different things they can do even if they share the same core.

When it comes to hp I used the same methods for calculation as I use for PC types.  I could use the average hp for NH levels (which I'll round up) which would cut 4 hp from the NH8 total I use but I generally don't believe that's significant especially as I'll have low hp NPCs try to withdraw/retreat instead of simply fighting to the death.  For the heroic levels I'd better give the NPCs the same benefits as I'd give the PCs.

I'll also admit that using NH8 here does make them pretty optimized and can see where you might want to count them as CL5.  If used against lower level PCs (which I probably don't recommend) I'd consider that but when used against higher level PCs, which is really where I want them, I'd be treating them as CL4 even if they punch at the highest end of that.

When it comes to hp I guess it might bear remembering that they may not have quite the defense scores a hero type would have and even with a better BAB they may not hit all that much better and without the damage.  To look at the heroic CL 4 equivalent I guess you'd be looking at a Soldier 4:

Soldier 4;  STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8 (PB 25, I normally use 28 for heroes)
Feats:  AP(light, medium), WP(simple, Pistol, Rifle), Martial Arts I, PBS, +2 general; Talents:  +2 from Soldier;  Trained Skills: +3 from Soldier
BAB +4; Defenses:  REF 19(15), FORT 18, WILL 15; hp 59

Compare this with:
NH8/Soldier1/EliteTrooper1
STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8,
BAB: +8;  Defenses:  REF 19(16)*, FORT 18, WILL 11;  hp 59
Feats:  AP (light, medium), Martial Arts I, Point Blank Shot:  +2 starting feats, +2 General Feats
Talents:  +1 ET requirement, +1 from Elite Trooper
Trained Skills:  Any one except UtF

There really isn't a lot of difference between the two.  The NH-ET is +4 BAB and also +3 skills ahead of the Soldier but -4 behind in WILL (the NH-ET weakest defense), missing the +1 DEX, INT, and +2 WIS modifiers when it comes to skills and that +1 DEX for ranged damage.  The NH-ET is also -1 behind in damage.  Comparing feats and skills both have 2 general feats that aren't assigned and while the NH build has 2 unassigned starting feats those would need to go to buy the Soldiers 3 weapon proficiencies and 2 additional trained skills so you could say the Soldier is +3 on that.  Delay Damage is certainly an edge the NH-ET has over the Soldier (which is why we're building using ET) but mark that against the starting feats/skills a Soldier gets and maybe you take the +3 edge down to +1 instead of just +2.

TL-DR:  The NH8/Sol1/ET1 vs. Soldier 4 comparison is very close.  If you want a bit more attack you use the ET but if you're looking for something that might resist a WILL Attack, has more trained skills to utilize, and has more utility in the weapons used you'll look at the Soldier.

Quote from: StevenO on November 27, 2019, 10:14:55 pm

NH8/Soldier1/EliteTrooper1
STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 8, (+6 remaining, up to +4 in any one)
BAB: +8;  Defenses:  REF 19(16)*, FORT 18, WILL 11;  hp 59
Feats:  AP (light, medium), Martial Arts I, Point Blank Shot:  +2 starting feats, +2 General Feats
Talents:  +1 ET requirement, +1 from Elite Trooper
Trained Skills:  Any one except UtF

What is that "+6 remaining, up to +4 in any one"?
You are already at PB 16 per my calculations, that is one more than NH normally get.

Took me a bit to find it but that was a bad cut/paste from the base model where those 14s should be 12s as seen in the second post.  The three 14s would cost 18 points which is your starting 15 with +1 at 4th level and +2 at 8th (figuring Soldier there before NH8 @ 9th and then ET).

...
Well, that last level of NH would not be strictly by the rules. But as the difference is so small I guess it could be OK anyway. Also, those stats are pretty min/maxed. But most of that could be moved around a bit as is needed.

I do really like these NPC builds, but they would be terrifying to encounter at 4th level! Two of them should be a tough but fair encounter for four 4th level PC's per the encounter rules. But I think it is very likely that those would wipe the floor with the PC's.

While it may not be done is it said you couldn't go from heroic levels to non-heroic ones?  Besides that at least I'm generally starting them with 15 point buys and if these characters get "heroic" buys I generally value them at +1 CL because of it.

While I may not really appreciate min/max for PCs when it comes to NPCs I do it so they can punch hard and actually present a challenge to higher level PCs.  I'm sure you've seen the GMs who throw higher level heroic types at PCs and while the CL says it should be a slaughter the PCs often seem to win because the NPC isn't played to the fullest.  My goal with these CL4 Elite Troopers isn't so much to use them against 4th-level heroes but rather against say 7th-12th level heroes who now think "they're too good" to face "weak" troops.

Against your 4th level heroes these certainly have a better BAB than the Soldier 4 although the sample Soldier does have higher DEX.  REF is similar between the two because armor is used as a great balancer otherwise the Soldier would have a small edge there.  Where the NH-ET is really hurting is in that WILL Defense department and while I've got the Soldier4 at WILL 15 the NH-ET is only WILL 11 providing an alternative angle to attack.

Quote from: StevenO on May 28, 2020, 03:49:41 pm

While it may not be done is it said you couldn't go from heroic levels to non-heroic ones?  Besides that at least I'm generally starting them with 15 point buys and if these characters get "heroic" buys I generally value them at +1 CL because of it.

Well, it has been clarified that this is not intended to work. But I'll get back to you if I find it... I guess that per RAW there is no stopping you from doing so. The multiclassing rules imply that it can be done, even if they don't mention NH levels.

As much as we all may love clarifications it can also be noted that the "source" for those isn't always that much better than another option especially when there were times two developers would have DIFFERENT thoughts on exactly how something was apparently "supposed" to work.

I fully know that none of the source books seem to place non-heroic levels after starting in a heroic class but after 1st-level is generally doesn't make much difference how a character's levels are added.  And when it comes to stats those "official" stat blocks are already all over the place so saying if the NH8/Soldier1/ET1 takes a level of Soldier at 8th-level for the second +1 ability boost or not is pretty foolish of them when they can't even keep everything else straight.

I also fully admit that counting the NH8 as CL2 is really pushing what CL2 can be.

Quote

I do really like these NPC builds, but they would be terrifying to encounter at 4th level! Two of them should be a tough but fair encounter for four 4th level PC's per the encounter rules. But I think it is very likely that those would wipe the floor with the PC's.

I'm still waiting for Steven's PbP adventure that's going to absolutely destroy all of us with our less-than-perfect PC builds 

But where's the fun in that!?  Beside that I HATE seeing "perfect" builds from PCs if perfect means "min/maxed to do one task and basically only one task well."  I'll do it for the NPCs to make them a challenge but I firmly believe you can accomplish a lot with lower CL opponents instead of relying on opponent's that are higher CL than the players have levels.  Now the scary thing is when the two are mixed together and it's not immediately apparent who's "the boss" and which are minions.