Author Topic: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot (Read 313 times)

YIDM · « **on:** November 08, 2015, 07:39:05 pm »

In the other thread, I noticed the one ability can’t make another ability obsolete theme, based on the FAQ, Dev comments, and Jedi Counsel forum responses.

I had a question on these two talents and stacking:
Hunter’s Mark (SWSE, page 208)
Debilitating Shot (SWSE, page 216)

They are worded identically, and do the exact same thing. Do they stack? Or is this one of those things like the FAQ response for Notorious (crime lord talent) and (bounty hunter talent) where they shouldn’t be allowed to stack?

Thoughts?

YIDM

StevenO · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2015, 07:55:05 pm »

They certainly do stack. The are different abilities but happen to do the same thing and be triggered by the same action. This combo has been known since the SECR came out year ago and is the basic core to what is commonly called the Condition Track Killer, or CT-Killer for short. Some variation of Scout3/class4/BountyHunter1/Gunslinger1 can let you Aim and then move a target -2 steps down the CT if you hit for any damage. It is sometime used with Dastardly Strike against a target denied its DEX for -3 steps. You can get to -4 steps if damage overcomes the target's DT (making Devestating Attack useful) and even -5 steps if using a Stun weapon.

This is possibly the strongest attack in the game and WotC has generally done a good job preventing it from getting any stronger. A -5 step move down the CT is possible but has several built in conditions to help restrict it. A -2 or -3 step shot is something that GMs need to realize is possible when you start dealing with the superheroes that those characters are.

YIDM · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2015, 08:00:04 pm »

I agree, I didn't see anything in the rules prohibiting this from stacking, but didn't know if I had missed any official statement, FAQ/errata or Dev comment.

I was going to use this combo and a Squib tensor rifle (Unknown Regions, page 39) to target Fortitude Defense and, exceeding Threshold with Dastardly Strike do -5 steps on each shot, without having to use stun damage (i.e. even to droids).
I almost submitted it for the last UDB, but didn't get around to it in time. Anyone else considered this combo with a Squib tensor rifle?

So this is definitely a stackable combo. Ouch.

YIDM

StevenO · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2015, 09:24:57 pm »

Note that you MUST be a squib for that combination to work. Debilitating Shot, and the rest of the Gunslinger talents, only work with Rifles and Pistols and the Squib Tensor Rifle is an exotic weapon. This is why I added the "generally done a good job preventing it from getting stronger," as that last book does finally turn the combo lethal. While still plenty lethal without the full combo effect I'd say to make sure the weapon lives up to its 'rare' classification and it is also something to carefully track ammo when using.

YIDM · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2015, 09:56:56 pm »

Yes, it was for the UDB, so it was a Squib...with a Squib tensor rifle.
Stack on all what's needed like - - Dastardly Strike, Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Mark, Total Concealment, Ghost Assailant, Sniper, Deadly Sniper and Devastating Attack, etc. (standard "CT-killer" stuff)

It was pretty much a one shot, each round, flat-footed opponent (impossible to hit Perception check at range), and 5 steps down the track.

Good to know it's legal. Makes for a good scary sniper opponent thou.

YIDM

StevenO · « **Reply #5 on:** November 08, 2015, 10:02:06 pm »

And what is that character's level?

Just pointing out that killing someone every turn certainly is something that gods could easily do.

YIDM · « **Reply #6 on:** November 08, 2015, 10:33:02 pm »

Well, I was building for UDB at 20th like most others, but you can get all the needed talents and feats by 13th. You may miss out on a few optional ones like Trigger Work to up the damage until higher level, but the basic build is ready by the mid-high level range.

At 13th - - solider 1/scoundrel 1/scout 5/gunslinger 1/elite trooper 3/bounty hunter 1/assassin 1

Devastating Attack (rifles)
Dastardly Strike
Acute Senses, Keen Shot, Improved Stealth
Debilitating Shot
Hidden Movement, Total Concealment
Hunter’s Mark
Sniping Marksman
...with Adaptable Talent feat (Ghost Assailant) replacing Keen Shot; other feats like: Deadeye, Sniper, and Deadly Sniper

Squib with Squib tensor rifle (and bipod for aim with a swift), Stealth field generator + sound sponge (for concealment, up-ed to total concealment with talent, and Ghost Assailant).
Fire at range, Snipe use of Stealth skill, and it's game over for most. Each round someone drops 5 steps on the track (most likely).

As I said, hadn't had a chance to fully stat it out yet, but even if it took 1-2 more levels, its terrible, even before "god" levels of above 16+.

YIDM

MERC_1 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 09, 2015, 07:57:56 am »

I guess that this could be done without the level of Assassin and Non-heroic levels + and levels you need to qualify for Bounty Hunter and Gunslinger? This should bring the CL down below 10 and still allow a -5 CT shot!

YIDM · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2015, 08:05:50 am »

Absolutely, if you go non-heroic for a few levels, its even lower CR. The catch is you need that +7 BAB to get into Elite Trooper, and you need that to get Hidden Movement / Total Concealment that pairs up with Ghost Assailant (for flat-footed on each shot). Technically, if your modifier and gear is good enough at hiding / using the Snipe application of the Stealth skill, you don't need Elite Trooper at all.

As I said, 13th, or even 12th or 10th CR (with non-heroic) and it's one shot, -5 step; repeat and rinse at 20+ squares away.

The "CT-killer" (as StevenO calls it) is why I often have my Dark Sider's with the Dark Preservation talent, or have them call upon the Dark Side using 'Temptations of the Dark Side' optional rule from Force Unleashed), and gain Dark Preservation talent before a battle. That talent COMPLETELY stops this combo (or any one-shot CT combo like Debilitating Power + Destiny Point + Force lightning), and does so as a Reaction and a FP (negate all condition track movement).

YIDM

Mr. Satan · « **Reply #9 on:** September 25, 2019, 04:02:38 pm »

Quote from: YIDM on November 08, 2015, 10:33:02 pm

Well, I was building for UDB at 20th like most others, but you can get all the needed talents and feats by 13th. You may miss out on a few optional ones like Trigger Work to up the damage until higher level, but the basic build is ready by the mid-high level range.

At 13th - - solider 1/scoundrel 1/scout 5/gunslinger 1/elite trooper 3/bounty hunter 1/assassin 1

Devastating Attack (rifles)
Dastardly Strike
Acute Senses, Keen Shot, Improved Stealth
Debilitating Shot
Hidden Movement, Total Concealment
Hunter’s Mark
Sniping Marksman
...with Adaptable Talent feat (Ghost Assailant) replacing Keen Shot; other feats like: Deadeye, Sniper, and Deadly Sniper

Squib with Squib tensor rifle (and bipod for aim with a swift), Stealth field generator + sound sponge (for concealment, up-ed to total concealment with talent, and Ghost Assailant).
Fire at range, Snipe use of Stealth skill, and it's game over for most. Each round someone drops 5 steps on the track (most likely).

As I said, hadn't had a chance to fully stat it out yet, but even if it took 1-2 more levels, its terrible, even before "god" levels of above 16+.

YIDM

The order of the classes/PrC is wrong. solider 1/scoundrel 1/scout 5/gunslinger 1 only gives you a +5 BAB, you need a +7 to take Elite Trooper. Also you need Sniping Assassin to take Sniping Marksman so you would need at least 3 levels in Assassin. I would take 3 Vanguard for the Invisible Attacker talent instead of Assassin & only 1 Elite Trooper for the Ambush talent. Provided they stack with each over and Deadly Sniper (which they probably don't) that's an extra 4 die of damage. Combine this with Assured Strike so you can reroll the lowest damage die, Desperate Gambit so you reroll your attack if you miss, Far Shot + Advanced Scope so you can hit from 100+ squares away at night with no penalty and you will be one hell of a sniper.

sunstaff · « **Reply #10 on:** November 03, 2019, 12:23:20 am »

This is just my personal house rule... I DO NOT allow them to stack. I realise its a hard combo to get, such as having to take 2 prestige classes. It's one of the downsides of d20 in general... because its a linear power scale system... optimal above par character "builds" are gravitated towards. No body picks a talent or feat that they can't use...... every...... single round. You'll find that the players who pick this, also pick talents/feat that eliminate concealment or cover, and also decrease damage thresholds, and flat foot enemies.. such as the feat: Steadying Position.

Soon, your BBEG who you spent 3 hours creating, cannot take cover, gets no concealment, and his DT which was 30, is now 20, and he has no dex bonus to his defence. He gets rolled in 1 round, because he gets taken 4 steps down the CT with a well placed shot, from the sniper 50 squares away, that he can't do anything about.

My house rule... is that I don't allow bonuses to stack, from the same circumstance, in this case "aiming"... which is also in line with the box on page: 241 SECR.

Another one of my favourite "power gamer pics" is the channel vitality and equilibrium combo- say hello to infinite force points.

My advice... disallow anything that encourages power gaming...
If you want to play a superhero game... try Mutants and Masterminds.. this is Star Wars.

StevenO · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2019, 12:57:24 am »

Quote from: sunstaff on November 03, 2019, 12:23:20 am

... No body picks a talent or feat that they can't use...... every...... single round. You'll find that the players who pick this, also pick talents/feat that eliminate concealment or cover, and also decrease damage thresholds, and flat foot enemies.. such as the feat: Steadying Position.

Soon, your BBEG who you spent 3 hours creating, cannot take cover, gets no concealment, and his DT which was 30, is now 20, and he has no dex bonus to his defence. He gets rolled in 1 round, because he gets taken 4 steps down the CT with a well placed shot, from the sniper 50 squares away, that he can't do anything about.

When it comes to things "stacking" you need to notice that sometimes it's not a "bonus" you are looking at but rather just something that happens to trigger other things. That's why Hunter's Mark/Debilitating Shot works is because both talents are triggered independently by an Aimed Attack

My house rule... is that I don't allow bonuses to stack, from the same circumstance, in this case "aiming"... which is also in line with the box on page: 241 SECR.

Another one of my favourite "power gamer pics" is the channel vitality and equilibrium combo- say hello to infinite force points.

My advice... disallow anything that encourages power gaming...
If you want to play a superhero game... try Mutants and Masterminds.. this is Star Wars.

You must be playing with over specialized powergaming types who believe the only "good" characters are one dimensional and then you play into those strengths. While there certainly are feats and talents that can come into play "every round" there are also so many that do not it's a pretty poor statement. If they are used "every round" then you need to change up what's going on. What else can your "super sniper" do if/when he can't do all of that?

The CT-Killer builds certainly can be pure murder on a solo BBEG when given the opportunity. However against a large number of enemy they don't perform nearly as well and if you have an opponent who is prepared to deal with it (and a GM should know what his PCs can do to plan for it) parts of it can be mitigated.

Channel Vitality + Equilibrium may equal "unlimited Force Points" but have you ever considered the risks and the cost? Using CV and then spending that on Equilibrium is nice for 2 swift actions but pretty expensive. If you actually want to spend those FP which disappear at the end of your turn that's going to mean actually moving down the CT for a round or two as you use the FP that CV gives you before recovering all the CT movement with Equilibrium. MOVE DOWN THE CT AT YOUR OWN RISK. Maybe it doesn't seem like much but if CT hits start happening they can come quickly and put you down before you even have a chance to recover.

It is a bit odd that you want to ban the CT-Killer and at the same time ban what could arguably be one of the better defenses against it. CT killer aims and moves target down CT, target gains FP and uses it for Equilibrium moving back up the CT. Of course that doesn't work so well when 4 steps down the CT.

sunstaff · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2019, 01:07:42 am »

SteveO

I agree with everything you said.

And yes, I probably was playing with over specialised power gaming types. I started realising they were looking for any way possible to ignore/ exploit the RaW or RaI. After advising at first, and then complaining.... I ended the campaign. Just said... we are not playing any more.

The fact is...... a specialised character can still drop -3CT if they exceed the DT..... they just have to get a bit luckier..... than just Aiming! (Hunter's Mark, Dastardly Strike, Steadying Position, and Devastating attack.) I think that's good enough... 2 hits rather than 1 on the BBEG. At least he has a chance to do something.... And it also caps it... rather than -4CT or even -5 if they pick some other class.
You can't just aim your way to the BBEG drop!

Being Prepared... there are a few talents/ feats that directly counter a CT Killer, such as Damage Conversion or Relentless.... saying to the player.... "Sorry this new BBEG again took 3 levels in Bounty Hunter, just so they could get Relentless, just so they can counter your CT killer build" ..... is just reverse power gaming on the part of the GM and exacerbating the problem. (I realise that's a strong opinion)
The player invested in the talents/ feat for the GM to contrive a way to nullify them? Why not just house rule them out, and save the frustration/ disappointment on the Power Gamer?

I would rather let the player have a bit of fun.... without allowing a OP combo.

Aiming takes away cover, and few talents/feats that eliminate concealment, and the BBEG has 2 choices..... attack the PCs with a Starship, or Run.

Finally, I realise it probably seems like I'm talking about of both sides of my mouth.... but my general gripe with any d20 game.... is it lends itself to power gaming. Saga is lot's of fun... but i personally feel it needs considerable house ruling to balance out the power creep, and OP combos. CT Killer is one, Channel Vitality is another... and there is certainly more.

I would love a list all the OP combos... and I would house rule them out of my game.

TheSagaContinues

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Author Topic: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot (Read 313 times)

YIDM

Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

StevenO

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

YIDM

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

StevenO

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

YIDM

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

StevenO

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

YIDM

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

MERC_1

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YIDM

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Mr. Satan

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

sunstaff

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StevenO

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot

sunstaff

Re: Rules Q: Hunter's Mark + Debilitating Shot