Author Topic: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat  (Read 253 times)

Tolentino

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Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« on: January 21, 2019, 07:58:03 am »
Hello all,

Is there a Rule that Rifles (not retracted stock) and similar ranged weapons (maybe dependent on the size) suffer from combat modifiers (either attack/defense or AoO) while being used in melee (i.e. against a target that is in an adjacent square, or when being the target of an melee-attacker in an adjacent square).
I am not talking about the shooting into melee where allies are concerned but if one combatant is attacking someone (with said weapon) who in turn has a melee weapon ready adjacent to him or is being attacked by him respectively.

I know this from other systems and somehow thought to have read this somewhere in a SWSE-Context but can't find the ruling anymore. Maybe it was a houserule.

I found a fluff text regarding the Heavy Blaster Rifle which indicates to something along the line but again couldn't find a ruling:
Quote from: SWSE CR p. 128
[...] Because of its size, it is not well suited to close - quarters fighting [...].

Can one of you experienced pro guys help? And if there is indeed no RAW on that situation, can we discuss house rules and their implications?

Thank You very much!

Best regards,

Tolentino

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sienn_sconn

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 08:57:33 am »
As far as I can tell, there is no general rule for ranged weapons suffering from combat penalties in melee.  There are some weapons like the Sniper Blaster Rifle (S&V page 50) that imposes a -5 penalty on attack rolls when you do not aim (and aiming provokes an AoO), but this tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that Star Wars Saga made it easier to use ranged weapons against adjacent foes simply because the average weapon in Star Wars does tend to be some type of blaster.  And I know we see several noteable examples of melee weapons being used throughout the movies, but by and large most Star Wars citizens will likely own a blaster rather than some type of melee weapon.

Many clone troopers during Revenge of the Sith appear to only have their rifles and use them to devastating effect in , who are close combat experts.  I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the one that comes to my mind.

I'm sure we can get more folks that would be more than happy to discuss houserules.  WHat were your intial thoughts on such rules?
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FakDendor

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 09:25:06 am »
I came from star wars d20 and I played through an entire campaign before I realized that in Saga Edition rifles don't provoke AoO in a melee. In theory aiming provokes, leaving some penalties, but this is not generally too problematic.

I had a conversation with Steven (I don't wish to speak on his behalf though) where I postulated that rifles and weapons with extended stock provoke AoO when used in a melee, while pistols and retracted stocks do not.

At the same time I have always house-ruled that generally melee weapons can make AoO but ranged weapons of all kinds cannot. I do this because it creates a nice spectrum.

  • Melee Weapons can make AoO but have bad range and generally less damage.
  • Pistols can be used in a melee without provoking AoO but cannot make AoO. They have higher base damage than melee weapons but lower than rifles.
  • Rifles and extended stock weapons cannot be used in a melee without provoking AoO and cannot make AoO but have higher damage output and autofire capabilities.

This just seems logical to me. It gives practical reasons to use all 3 different kinds of weapons.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 10:01:35 am by FakDendor »

Tolentino

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 10:44:37 am »
I like the AoO variant, but then how would you treat aiming in melee? Another AoO, so that only Combatants with Combat Reflexes would benefit?
Another possibility would be to just add a disfavorable circumstance modifier (-2?) to the attack roll. In this way the Rifleman would only be punished once.
One could argue that the melee defender can also parry the rifle (barrel, stock and other parts of the large weapon) itself and so get out of the line of attack. She has more options to defend herself than just moving around quickly and be a moving target...
With the AoO variant in my opinion the punishment for the rifle guy becomes intense if he'd be surrounded by multiple close combat opponents.


Also one would have to consider that with any house rule in this direction the talent Gun club would get more valuable.
I should add, that I have no problem with that, since this talent seems quite underwhelming to me anyway. Or am I missing something there?

Best regards,

T

FakDendor

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 10:54:12 am »
Quote
Also one would have to consider that with any house rule in this direction the talent Gun club would get more valuable.

You're not wrong, and before I realized that rifles don't provoke AoO in the rules as written, I considered gun club to be quite a good talent, giving cornered rifle-users a useful alternative. I had a conversation with Steven a while back where he couldn't understand why I would want gun club, mainly because I hadn't realized there's no reason you wouldn't just shoot someone with your rifle, rules as written. If your alternative is provoking an AoO gun club is a nice backup.

StevenO

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 02:15:57 pm »
The RAW is that ranged attacks with anything generally do NOT provoke AoO when made while threatened.  I'm not sure that any penalties are clearly spelled out either when doing so although I certainly consider applying the "attacking into melee" penalty to ranged attack made while threatened at least if they are being directed at someone who is not threatening the character.

I think Fak has brought up some points that I know I've touched on before at least when it come to house rules:

1.  To make Melee Weapons more viable they are generally the only types of attacks that can be used for an AoO.  Now there are some feats/talents that specifically pertain to ranged weapons making AoO (generally expanding them) and those may need to be addressed individually but they shouldn't be too hard to deal with.

2.  Now to make AoO more common only the ranged weapons which could be used to make AoO under RAW (Pistols, cabines/rifle with folded stock) can be used while threatened without provoking.  Now if there is something specific that might stop an AoO that would normally trigger one when using a newly AoO provoking weapon (Snap Shot comes to mind) those can also avoid the AoO but again these are exceptions.

One more thing I have considered using is that making a ranged attack while threatened against any target other than the threatening character would suffer the same penalty that Shooting into Melee normally would (ie -5); now if the attack would provoke an AoO maybe this isn't needed as much but it certainly represents the idea that being so close to a hostile it's not especially hard for that hostile to screw up and ranged attack you might try making.  Although it's pretty dangerous to test just try some target shooting with a ranged weapon while someone else is attempting (threatening by game standards) to beat you up/kill you with a melee attack of some kind.

I like the AoO variant, but then how would you treat aiming in melee? Another AoO, so that only Combatants with Combat Reflexes would benefit?
Another possibility would be to just add a disfavorable circumstance modifier (-2?) to the attack roll. In this way the Rifleman would only be punished once.
One could argue that the melee defender can also parry the rifle (barrel, stock and other parts of the large weapon) itself and so get out of the line of attack. She has more options to defend herself than just moving around quickly and be a moving target...
With the AoO variant in my opinion the punishment for the rifle guy becomes intense if he'd be surrounded by multiple close combat opponents.

Also one would have to consider that with any house rule in this direction the talent Gun club would get more valuable.
I should add, that I have no problem with that, since this talent seems quite underwhelming to me anyway. Or am I missing something there?
...
Let's not forget that you can AIM more than just rifles with extended stocks so while I would NOT having Aiming with a Rifle and then attacking it both trigger AoO I guess either could be used as a trigger.

While you might look at Gun Club as an option for the rifleman who has too many opponents on top of him (and certainly it is) to safely fire the rifle outside of the mob the game has other options.  You may not see them all too often but SWSE does have Bayonets (normal and Vibro/advanced) plus an upgrade in S&V that can turn many small weapons into something you can mount on the end of a rifle to use.  In the "Moonbase assault" mission that's just getting started there are several characters that have a bayonet of some sort mounted on a rifle just to have a melee attack ready to use.  The other VERY common option besides Gun Club is to simply have the Martial Arts I feat which lets you use some kind of unarmed (which actually could already include smashing someone with the butt/stock of your blaster) attack instead; it's the "melee weapon" that's always available even if the damage isn't always great and you generally don't get two-handed damage bonuses.
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timcrall

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 02:04:11 am »
The other VERY common option besides Gun Club is to simply have the Martial Arts I feat which lets you use some kind of unarmed (which actually could already include smashing someone with the butt/stock of your blaster) attack instead; it's the "melee weapon" that's always available even if the damage isn't always great and you generally don't get two-handed damage bonuses.

+1 for Martial Arts I - such a good feat.  The damage upgrade is by small the least important part of it.  Being able to make AoOs and, even more importantly, to not provoke them is huge to me for having an always-available attack option - and one that doesn't even require using your hands.  And a +1 Dodge bonus is just gravy.

Dessertblade

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2019, 05:23:12 am »
Ok, so you are telling me that, RAW, the only benefit using a melee weapon over a rifle is that you can make an AoO (and only one if you dont have the apropiate talents) and with the Rifle you cant. And Pistols and Carbines can make AoO too.

So unless you have a ton of Feats or Talents for enhance your melee or a titanic strength, a Rifle is always better due the higher damage. Nice.

Is there then any reason to take Weapon Finesse if you are not Jedi and need it (because DEX build)? Because you would waste another feat and probably you could get a lot more with a carbine or a rifle in melee in damage output than with a vibrodagger.

StevenO

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 11:24:30 am »
Ok, so you are telling me that, RAW, the only benefit using a melee weapon over a rifle is that you can make an AoO (and only one if you dont have the apropiate talents) and with the Rifle you cant. And Pistols and Carbines can make AoO too.

So unless you have a ton of Feats or Talents for enhance your melee or a titanic strength, a Rifle is always better due the higher damage. Nice.

Is there then any reason to take Weapon Finesse if you are not Jedi and need it (because DEX build)? Because you would waste another feat and probably you could get a lot more with a carbine or a rifle in melee in damage output than with a vibrodagger.

Under the RAW there are very few clear "benefits" to using melee weapons.  Under the RAW you can take AoO with melee weapons, pistols, carbines (but they maybe should fall under) or rifles with folded stocks which leave most rifles out but then you also need to look at the things that trigger AoO and also what do not including making ranged attacks while threatened.

Now rifles ALWAYS being better that melee isn't entirely true although it often is.  With STR 14 (which I don't consider titanic STR) and a non-light weapon two-handed you get +4 damage which can often make damage comparable.  Melee attacks also get away from certain penalties that Ranged Attacks will face as cover is much less of an issue an you'd never need to worry about the pesky "firing into melee" penalty although that would go away if your allies would just stay out of melee.

When it comes to Weapon Finesse I'll agree that it's a feat I'd rather not take outside of a few, relatively specific, builds.  You have Jedi with a much higher DEX than STR and eventually want to move into melee for reasons then Weapon Finesse and the Ataru talent can quickly turn your lightsaber use from mostly cosmetic/defensive into something potentially threatening.  Beyond that if you want to use DEX for your attack under the RAW there is little point in wielding a light melee weapon instead of just using a pistol in many cases.

Especially if you follow the game RAW there is little reason for someone to use melee weapons over ranged weapons outside of close quarters battles where it can sometimes be an issue.  In real life you could have down range issues but they aren't aren't part of the game.
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MERC_1

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 05:57:23 pm »

2.  Now to make AoO more common only the ranged weapons which could be used to make AoO under RAW (Pistols, cabines/rifle with folded stock) can be used while threatened without provoking.  Now if there is something specific that might stop an AoO that would normally trigger one when using a newly AoO provoking weapon (Snap Shot comes to mind) those can also avoid the AoO but again these are exceptions.

It looks like you equate rifles and carbines when you write: "cabines/rifle with folded stock". There is a huge difference! A carbine with an extended stock can be used to make AoOs, a rifle with an extended stock can't. A carbine is always viable to make AoOs according to RAW. So a carbine with an extended stock should not provoke an AoO with said house rule.

I can understand the want of a rule for rifles and bigger guns to provoke AoOs even when not aiming.

I can't understand that robbing gunslingers of their AoOs will improve the game, not that they get to enjoy them that often. Generally, you don't get to gun down someone charging at you with a sword from 9 meters away, even though an AoO would look obvious there. You have to invest in a precious PrC talent  from Gunslinger to do so. To take away AoOs even from pistols, that would make them even less of a viable weapon.

Lightsabers are the most iconic weapons of Star Wars and they are given the most love with talents and force powers.
The second most iconic weapon would be the blaster pistol imho.

If you gimp the pistols you will have lots of rifles and carbines with bayonets and very few pistols. As AoOs are one of the reasons to use a pistol instead of a rifle or heavy weapon. Sure, there is the small detail of proficiency, but that is rarely a problem past second level or so. 


StevenO

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 10:17:25 pm »
I'll say I find the distinction between "rifles" and "carbines" to be pretty bad.  Both are "Rifles" when it comes to proficiency and then presumably everything else.  Both deal the exact same damage with the exact same number of shots.  Then you get to the differences where the rifle can attempt shots at 151-300 squares (how often have you ever seen those in a game?) but good luck hitting at -10 while the Carbine gets to weigh half as much, costs less, and gets to make AoO without even folding the stock.

Now if you're worried about the status of Pistols in the game I'd just say that in so many ways the Blaster Carbine already takes them over.  I mean you the folded stock on them and you'll get the idea that you can wield them just like you would a heavy blaster pistol except it's a little heavier, cost more but is easier to acquire, and it has autofire as an option; if a target gets out to 61 squares could just extend the stock and use it with rifle ranges and be no worse off that if you firing a pistol at those ranges.
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MERC_1

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 06:44:29 pm »
I'll say I find the distinction between "rifles" and "carbines" to be pretty bad.  Both are "Rifles" when it comes to proficiency and then presumably everything else.  Both deal the exact same damage with the exact same number of shots.  Then you get to the differences where the rifle can attempt shots at 151-300 squares (how often have you ever seen those in a game?) but good luck hitting at -10 while the Carbine gets to weigh half as much, costs less, and gets to make AoO without even folding the stock.

Well, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. That carbines are a bit too good at everything? Sure, I'll bite. I even agree that unless you want to use a lot of autofire, you should probably carry a carbine. Slap on a 100 credit scope on said carbine, and even those 200 m pot shots should be easy enough. It's easily one of the best weapons in the game, maybe even too good.

So, if you have a carbine or a rifle you should try to place a sniper that can control the field as often as possible, even as a player. If the GM never let you do so, I can't help you with that. Every time you have a meeting with some shady character, you should try to scout the place out discreetly and place a sniper or even two. If you do, they will like those scopes an the Far Shot feats.

Now if you're worried about the status of Pistols in the game I'd just say that in so many ways the Blaster Carbine already takes them over.  I mean you the folded stock on them and you'll get the idea that you can wield them just like you would a heavy blaster pistol except it's a little heavier, cost more but is easier to acquire, and it has autofire as an option; if a target gets out to 61 squares could just extend the stock and use it with rifle ranges and be no worse off that if you firing a pistol at those ranges.
So once again, maybe the carbine is a bit too good? They are lighter so a little easier than rifles to handle I guess, but maybe they should get the same treatment as rifles as far as making AoOs? Still don't see this as a reason to make pistols worse.

The way I see things, I think that a Blaster Pistol is supposed to be the prefered weapon to make an AoO! To take that possibility away makes little sense to me. But if you do, there is going to be more than one talent or feat that is affected. Opportunistic Strike from the Run and Gun tree is one that will be less useful I imagine.

Now the proposed change is a house rule, so it is optional. If you want to play your games like that, there is little that I can say to stop you. If it is up front announced as a house rule, every player has the choice to accept or choose a different game. As long as he's not playing a Gunslinger that focus on AoOs he would have little reason to complain!


StevenO

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 06:58:25 pm »
If you want to sum it up as the carbine is "too good" that certainly works even if the basic 3d8 version isn't "good enough" for everyone.  Throw in other weapons that are even better "carbines" and you are onto something.

When it comes to AoO I just don't see how/why a pistol should work at least the way AoO happen in the game.  If someone runs by you and stays a square away no free pistol attack but if they happen to run by next to you THEN you get a free shot at them when they happen to move past?  Now as for those feats/talents that would generally improve a ranged AoO here you can make them extra special by having them work by RAW which then turns aside a house rule.  In the current Sandbox Fak kind of agrees with me that when the Snap Shot feat would normally allow you to avoid drawing an AoO for Aiming (with a fully stocked rifle) then we probably should allow that character to ignore the house rule having the rifle use alone drawing an AoO.
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MERC_1

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 07:21:07 pm »
Yes, that makes more sense.

Removing the option of AoO from all pistols and rifles, but let you use them with talents that affect AoOs, more or less adding the option back at a cost. That makes it OK by me.

Still think that the carbine is overly good at everything in RAW, and still don't know any other weapons that can be used for an AoO with an extended stock per RAW.

StevenO

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Re: Rifles in Melee/Close Combat
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 10:22:56 pm »
With these various house rules remember that when taking away the ability of certain ranged weapons to MAKE AoO we are also making ranged weapons generally Provoke AoO EXCEPT for those weapons which previously could have been used to make them.  They may take away the ability to use a pistol to shoot someone as the walk by but now we're allowing you to shoot that person next to you without drawing the AoO while using a "rifle" or something else generally would.
...
Still think that the carbine is overly good at everything in RAW, and still don't know any other weapons that can be used for an AoO with an extended stock per RAW.

Going through the list of "Carbines" any we've got.
Normal (generally all types are 3d8, inaccurate, and get 50 shots per power pack)
Double-Barreled (can be used to max a 2x2 area attack but lacks autofire as such)
Hunting (uses d10s on crits instead of d8)
Repeating (LARGE Size, autofire only, 3d10 dmg, doesn't say it can be hooking into a power generator but who knows what'll happen)
Sporting (double ammo, no autofire, but not Inaccurate like the rest if used with two hands)

Considering how they stack up against comparable "Blaster Rifles" the RAW certainly gives them plenty of advantages.
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