TheSagaContinues

So I've been a longtime GM for Saga, on and off for years now, and to this day I've always been puzzled by the lack of any Class Skills on a SAGA Prestige Class's write-up.  I know the RAW just don't support this, even with errata and FAQ that I've perused, and while I find myself flummoxed by the designers' decision, what I am here asking from all of you is the following:

• Do you agree or disagree with this absence?
• If you agree, what are the work-arounds and rationales you use in prestige character design?
• If you disagree, what house rules or flexible interpretations do you utilize or have considered to address this?
• Any further thoughts or input on this question?  Please do reply and let me know!?

How is this a problem?
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So, can you give me an example of how this is a problem? Whenever you need a new class-skill, you just pick a level in a class that has that access to that skill.

It's not so much a problem with understanding the RAW as I mentioned.  It's a conceptual weirdness that since many PrC's are essentially highly focused versions of Core Classes, that they don't contain some of the potential 'paradigm' inherent within.

For example... a character can take the Ace Pilot prestige class, which covers a lot of RP concepts to be sure, but I always think of someone like Han Solo when I think of that class.  So while it's certainly possible for a Soldier or a Jedi to take the class just as much as a Scoundrel can, that's where I guess I disconnect...  you could be Ace Pilot for more levels than you had any other class, and you never- I guess the word I am looking for is... 'grow' into the archetype.  You're always who you were before with no real identity imbedded into what *should* be an archetype that has Han Solo type traits inherent in them.  Am I making sense?  Yes, you could take a level in Scoundrel if you didn't already have it.  But then it seems you're deviating away and not towards... I dunno. 

I think it just felt weird.

Well I am not 100% sure, that's why I thought I would broach it here.  I rather like some of what StevenO did with his House Rules on Skill Training as a bonus feat with multiclass.  Yet I was left feeling dissatisfied still when statting out certain NPC's.  I was trying to make some pirate/blockade runner archtypes out of some core classes without too much dipping. 

I know, I know, it's a bias of mine that I can't stand class-dipping, I tend to make linear single class or single+prc class progressions.  :-P

Well I am not 100% sure, that's why I thought I would broach it here.  I rather like some of what StevenO did with his House Rules on Skill Training as a bonus feat with multiclass.  Yet I was left feeling dissatisfied still when statting out certain NPC's.  I was trying to make some pirate/blockade runner archtypes out of some core classes without too much dipping. 

I know, I know, it's a bias of mine that I can't stand class-dipping, I tend to make linear single class or single+prc class progressions.  :-P

I might note that over the years I've really been meaning to change that.  If I leave it it'll be for the "skill" classes only because one really wouldn't/shouldn't need the enticement of another trained skill to take levels in Jedi or Soldier; this may mean you don't have many choices when multiclassing into Jedi but that's fine as just because you have something doesn't mean you'll use it.

I'll also remind you that SWSE is really DESIGNED with multiclassing in mind.  As I always say just look at the game mechanics you believe fit your character and you probably should be able to "refluff" them to mean something you might not think of looking at the names.

As for the question at hand I've never had any issue with PrCs NOT saying anything about Skills; there's never been a need.  In fact, I pretty much HATE the optional-optional Background mechanic because I essentially see it as throwing out class skills which I believe are a very important differentiator when picking a starting class.  For example I'll almost NEVER start a character in Scoundrel unless I really feel the character needs multiple skills trained that are not on the list of any other class; to put it another way the only reason I ever will start a character in Scoundrel is because I want IMMEDIATE access to it's list of class skills.  On the flip side I consider Scoundrel a pretty decent target to multiclass into provided you're willing to give up the BAB as it gives you access to most of the important skills (the only ones that generally stand out to me are Treat Injury which you can get from Soldier and Survival which is a requirement for some PrCs), Point Blank Shot is often a useful feat, and you probably should be able to find a talent or two that will work with/for your character.

Now the thing PrCs do that some overlook is that they may give access to talent trees that you normally think of as belonging to a Base class.  Where this is most exciting is when you get access to talent trees that may not have the strongest base class foundation but can be found in more robust PrCs.  As an example of this how much BAB do you think I'd need to give up to get a Camouflage, two Awareness, and a Misfortune talent?  Did you answer THREE because that's 3 "Scout" talents which would take Scout 5 and a Scoundrel talent needing Scoundrel 1?  Well you're right but you're also very wrong because the Ghost character I recently played in a sandbox adventure here has all four of those talent but only gives up a single point of BAB in 14 levels.  How?  It's because of PrCs that give me access to those talent trees so that a Scout3/Soldier3/Jedi1/Vanguard3/BountyHunter1 could get all of that in 11 levels and only miss a single point of BAB; now Ghost was 14th-level so JK2/JM1 are missing but even this addition allowed the selection of a base class talent that was used to fill out the concept.

Now for those who really want access to a certain skill one of my house rules creates a 1st-level hero ONLY talent that instead of a normally talent gives you one bonus feat from your class list (which may be as powerful as a talent) and then Either one additional trained skill OR on additional class skill of your choice to expand your skill base.  Now this may be too powerful as some will accurately point out that you can often "buy" a skill with an available feat or a talent so having this give a feat as well is powerful; it might be but I generally rank Talents as being more powerful than Feats which in turn are above trained Skills.  There may not be much overlap in Talents and Feats but while both of those could effectively get you a trained skill I wouldn't say I've ever seen a Skill that has the upside power of the strongest feats/talents.

I'll say using Ace Pilot to try explaining a need for PrCs to have class skills is really lost on me seeing as it is one of the easiest PrCs to enter and all base classes let you train at least 2/3 of the skills you'd commonly associate with a pilot.  All the "pilot" skills are available from a full BAB class so multiclassing to get access to them (and often picking them up by boosting an ODD INT score to an even score) is a snap unless your GM is stick in the eye type who beliefs go against everything in SWSE when it comes to the meaning of names.

I have to disagree. There are many ways of interpeting each class, not just your short summary.
Noble - yes, you can be high-born and thus well- educated, but you can also be a cadet from military academy, specialised in combat leadership and knowing next to nothing about upper-class behavior. Or you can be a low-class with good enough grades to be given a stipend and be a studied surgeon or engineer. Or a merchant or many more
Soldier doesn´t have to have any military training at all.  You can be a bodyguard, security personnel or even above average thug working for a crime lord.
You do not need any level in soldier to be in military either. Noble can be an officer or draftee surgeon, scout can be a recon, scoundrel a pilot or technician...
(You can even be a Jedi without any level in any Jedi class, technically)

I could go on about all the classes, but I think the point was given

If I were to give a brief description of what the base classes represent:
Noble:  A people person who knows how to get more out of people.
Scoundrel:  The jack of all trades.  Often looks out more for number one or works to bring down others instead of building them up which is where you look at Noble.
Scout:  A more rugged person who isn't so much into people (which is why no CHA skills) but who knows a good bit about a number of things.  Also a bit of a survivor.
Soldier:  Tough guy.  Generally not too interested in Social interactions except as they pertain to tactics/games but who's ok with machines while also having a tough side.
Jedi:  Probably the class that looks inward the most which can then manifest in a large number of ways.

Even more important is to show what roles could be filled by combining two different classes. Many of these roles could be filled in a number of ways. This just a few examples to get you started.

Jedi / Soldier: Jedi Guardian or Weapons Master
Jedi / Scout: Jedi Watchman or Inquisitor
Jedi / Scoundrel: Jedi Refugee, a free-spirited Jedi or even a Jedi Shadow
Jedi / Noble:  Jedi Councilor or Saber Rake.

Soldier / Scout: Special Ops or Bounty Hunter
Soldier / Scoundrel: Quartermaster, Assassin or Pilot
Soldier/ Noble: Officer

Scout / Scoundrel: Fringer or Smuggler
Scout / Noble: Noble from a backwater planet

Scoundrel / Noble:  Disgraced Noble or Swindler

To be honest I'd write several of those combos differently.  To me a Jedi/Noble is a LOT different from a Noble/Jedi as I always read the first class listed as the character's starting class at first level.  Perhaps they can fill similar roles with time but a Jedi/Noble is likely to have a lot more hit points but far fewer, and likely different, trained skills than the Noble/Jedi because of how far apart those two classes are as starting classes.  Starting in Jedi enables a character to have Force Training earlier and most Jedi concepts starting in another class end up taking Force Sensitivity at 1st-level so they can train UtF.  To take some of those breakdowns and see the difference:

Jedi/Scout:  Is probably taking Scout for some of the skill access but more likely taking it for certain talents.
Scout/Jedi:  To me this is your watchman type build as it starts with all of the Scout's skills before going gaining lightsaber skills and other things from Jedi.

Jedi/Nobel:  Your Force user is probably taking levels in Noble for the talents although it does give future access to the skills.
Noble/Jedi:  Here you're getting all of those Noble skills, many of which the Jedi class does not have access to, before going into the things the Jedi class can bring you.  Additionally, this start as other avenues that don't even involve the Force.

How you'd order Soldier levels with Scout, Scoundrel, or Noble also have some big effects as does how it's ordered with Jedi although there the starting hp and BAB remain the same while they have a similar number and types of starting skills.

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Yes, I know, but those were just a listing of things possible with the listed two classes in no particular order. It's mostly directed at the TS to give some ideas for multi-classing. How to combine those two classes are out of the scope of my advice. Those considerations are to be made for each build in my experience.
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It's quite alright as I was trying to expand on what you were saying Merc.  While SWSE is multiclass friendly I guess we can admit that you can't always see a character's "long term concept" from first level in a number of cases.  This is why I encourage people to take 3-5 levels to maturate a build for a concept before writing it off although some "concepts" are really high minded and will take longer although you can be well on your way in that 3-5.  This is also part of why your starting class matters most but your overall "concept" could actually turn a long ways away from that starting class.

In regards to PrCs needing class skills by the time a character is 8th-level the time for getting key skills has already come and you already have access to it as a class skill in how you got to that point.