Author Topic: NPC Builds (Read 1190 times)

MERC_1 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2016, 07:21:14 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on April 17, 2016, 06:32:10 pm

A lot of NPCs in WEG had points spend all over the place in things that really don't matter all that much. I'd also say that when writing up a character it was pretty easy to "just give in another die or two" especially in areas that generally wouldn't affect the players.

While I agree that the stats was sometime a bit strange, I think that they usually did separate the heroics from the non-heroics pretty clearly. The (human) ones that was heroic had stats from 2D to 4D, raising a stat above that could only be done in-game by spending lots of XP and training time. Getting stats and skills that high would take many adventures and correspond to maybe level 6-10 at least.

So a character with Perception 4D+1 would probably have very high Dex and/or Improved Initiative in SAGA. Perception controlled initiative in D6 i think, but this may have varied between editions.

StevenO · « **Reply #16 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:38:34 pm »

I'd said I'd take a look at those WEG stats and should admit they are a bit higher than I generally expected. They are NPC stats but when when the best skill a human PC could start with is 6D it makes that 10D extremely high and possibly something that doesn't model well.

For those without the know here is the difficulty level for things in WEG and some corresponding numbers:
Very Easy 1-5 or 1D
Easy 6-10 or 2D
Moderate 11-15 or 3D-4D
Difficult 16-20 or 5D-6D
Very Difficult 21-30 or 7D-8D
Heroic 31+ or 9D+

With these numbers in mind Corinna certainly look like she should be the higher level of the sisters with those 9D and 10D skills Kandria may have 7D in a few skills but nothing like Corinna. What pains me is that while they have some great skills their primary combat skills (Blaster and Dodge) aren't much better than a starting character could have and are even less than some starting characters. Welcome to one of the big differences from the d20 version and other things. Here are some things that an old d6 to d20 (pre SAGA) conversion guide might say:

Corinna (Kandria): STR 11, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 14 (15), WIS 16, CHA 17 (16) [conversions don't use Mechanical so these two gain a bit from that a where a 3D code could be considered "average" for a WEG hero that equates to a 14 (pb 36!) for d20.

I guess level guesses can be made using Skills but also by using the combat skills. It would seem Corinna has a +6 attack and +8 defense while Kandria is actually +8 attack but only +7 defense. I guess that should make the two pretty powerful at put them in the 6-8th level range.

Man this makes me remember while I like SAGA... Starting WEG characters were pretty easy to convert based on feel but converting an advanced character from one system to another really just means starting from scratch and rebuilding to your needs while keeping the spirit of the character alive.

PS. Yes Merc, Perception was used to determine action order in WEG when there was no initiative and characters only took one action at a time BUT had no rules limit on the number of actions they could take in a round; only practical limits. The conversion from WEG to d20 would but a 4D+1 ability at an 18 but Perception gets cut with other scores to get the d20 values; now if that 4D+1 had been STRENGTH it would get to be counted TWICE as the stat for both CON and STR.

Oh, I found the WEG to d20 conversion guide here: http://web.archive.org/web/20040224221934/http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article.asp?x=rpg_conversion&c=rpg#skillequiv
There is also a d20/RCR to SAGA conversion guide somewhere which is far more better but that should be expected going from one d20 system to another instead of going with a completely different system.

Luke Styer · « **Reply #17 on:** April 27, 2016, 01:48:16 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on April 26, 2016, 10:38:34 pm

I'd said I'd take a look at those WEG stats and should admit they are a bit higher than I generally expected.

I can't "eyeball" WEG stats very well.

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What pains me is that while they have some great skills their primary combat skills (Blaster and Dodge) aren't much better than a starting character could have and are even less than some starting characters. Welcome to one of the big differences from the d20 version and other things.

Right, thought the relatively easy availability a +10 or better skill bonus at first level in Saga Edition sort of mitigates the old D20 gripe that to be skilled at anything one must be skilled at combat.

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Man this makes me remember while I like SAGA... Starting WEG characters were pretty easy to convert based on feel but converting an advanced character from one system to another really just means starting from scratch and rebuilding to your needs while keeping the spirit of the character alive.

Converting for feel and following the spirit of the character is really all I aim for anyhow.

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Oh, I found the WEG to d20 conversion guide here: http://web.archive.org/web/20040224221934/http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article.asp?x=rpg_conversion&c=rpg#skillequiv

Interesting. I'm not sure I knew that existed. I'm not sure how helpful it would be though, since it would just be a stop on the way to a Saga Edition conversion, and I'm not sure I'd want to bother trying to convert twice just to get one character.

StevenO · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2016, 05:25:04 pm »

Having the WEG to d20 conversion may still be a useful tool as it can give ability scores which are effectively the same between the OCR and SAGA and could be used to estimate attack bonus (again, unchanged) and possibly skill ranks. I'll give you that skills are one of the things that underwent a massive change from the RCR to SAGA but when you realize that the OCR/RCR max ranks were 3+level you could use that to estimate a character's maximum level. In SAGA skill training and skill focus sure do let normal people actually be good in various skills without a pile of levels and the non-heroic class is actually relatively straightforward once you know how to use it.

When it comes to advancing a character in WEG it was all done with points, character points to be precise. Advancing most skills required a # of skill points equal to #D to advance the skill +1 "pip" which is to say it takes 4 points to go from 4D to 4D+1. When you would get +3 pips you increase the number of dice and drop the pips so 4D+2 would advance to 5D. Going from XD to (X+1)D cost 3X character points. The base ability score cost 10 times more to increase but boost all skills under it as well. Besides advancing skills and abilities Character Points could also be use for rerolling dice and some other things IIRC.

If we count Corinna spent a massive 1122 character points solely to advance skills (while Perception is higher than human norms the total ability of 18 ability dice is still standard hero level.) Her sister Kandria has spent FAR less at 538. This is excluding the +7D in starting skills (assigned as +1D or +2D to a given skill) which could knock 100 points off of Corinna and 93 off of Kandria. The "general rule" from pg 160 of the Revised and Expanded SWRPG says characters should receive 3-15 character points for each adventure. With that kind of "advancement rate" it shows just how high those numbers may be.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 28, 2016, 07:04:30 pm »

Quote from: Luke Styer on April 27, 2016, 01:48:16 pm

Quote
Oh, I found the WEG to d20 conversion guide here: http://web.archive.org/web/20040224221934/http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article.asp?x=rpg_conversion&c=rpg#skillequiv
Interesting. I'm not sure I knew that existed. I'm not sure how helpful it would be though, since it would just be a stop on the way to a Saga Edition conversion, and I'm not sure I'd want to bother trying to convert twice just to get one character.

ONE way would be to look at the highest skills and see what skill rank that corresponds to. For Corinna that would be Streetwise 9D, which is 6D above her Knowledge of 3D.

Those 6D corresonds to 18 skill ranks in OCR or a minimum level of 15. But maybe she has Skill Focus (+3) in OCR and/or another feat for +2. That would not affect the skill ranks, but would let you lower the level and keep the same bonus. That brings it down to a more resonable level 10.

Doing the same thing for Kandria and you will see that she has two skills at 4D above her stats. This correspond to 12 ranks in those skills or a minimum level of 9. With feats that could bring he as low as level 4 in OCR, but a character of that low level would not have enough feats to spare for all her high skills, so I would not not bring her below level 6.

So my calculations put Corinna in the level 10-15 range,
and Kandria ends up in a more narrow level 6-9 range.

Multi-classing in Noble and Scoundrel and possibly a few PrC levels could work for Corinna. She will need Skill Focus (Gather Infomation, Deception, Persuasion and Bureaucracy)!

Kandria is probably built with Scoundrel and Soldier to give her better BAB progression then her sister. She will need Skill Focus (Persuasion and maybe Deception and/or something else)!

Luke Styer · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2016, 04:48:18 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on April 27, 2016, 05:25:04 pm

Having the WEG to d20 conversion may still be a useful tool as it can give ability scores which are effectively the same between the OCR and SAGA and could be used to estimate attack bonus (again, unchanged) and possibly skill ranks.

That's a fair point.

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the non-heroic class is actually relatively straightforward once you know how to use it.

Honestly, with a 3/4 BAB, the Non-Heroic class is a little more combat-effective than I'd prefer for building skilled non-combatants, but your explanation earlier in this thread has sort of opened my eyes up to it generally.

Quote from: MERC_1 on April 28, 2016, 07:04:30 pm

So my calculations put Corinna in the level 10-15 range,
and Kandria ends up in a more narrow level 6-9 range.

Those are higher levels than I would have expected, but they comport with the crazy numbers of WEG character points that StevenO identified before.

StevenO · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2016, 06:28:23 pm »

Quote from: Luke Styer on May 02, 2016, 04:48:18 pm

Quote
the non-heroic class is actually relatively straightforward once you know how to use it.
Honestly, with a 3/4 BAB, the Non-Heroic class is a little more combat-effective than I'd prefer for building skilled non-combatants, but your explanation earlier in this thread has sort of opened my eyes up to it generally.

That 3/4 BAB can certainly help boost up the non-heroic's attack value comparative to its CL but that isn't the only thing when it comes to combat. The NH should have lower stats when probably means giving up +1 or +2 in modifiers there if not more. Without have all of the bonus feats and talents the NH also has a harder time taking some of those things which can boost attacks that heroic characters may be taking. Moving on from just the attack value you next look at damage output where heroes get an edge due to the heroic damage bonus plus those previously mentioned bonus feats and talents along with some PrC abilities later on.

While the NH can have an attack bonus that exceeds the standard hero of the same CL and damage that lags behind just a little bit where they generally get killed is in the defense department. With just the base 10 in all defense scores and no heroic level or class boost the only thing stopping a NH from getting hit is armor for those fortunate enough to wear it. When they do get hit a d4 HD doesn't go very far although it is effectively 3d4/CL; the killer here, at least when compared to a Soldier or Jedi start, is not getting the triple max starting HD in hitpoints. NH does make good use of high CON scores, if they can afford them, but 3d4 for CL 1 is 9 hp or less compared to the 18 that even a Scoundrel or Noble get and to the 30 that a Soldier or Jedi start with. If you can target a NH's WILL Defense they are often sitting ducks outside of a possible bonus for being "higher level" in some cases.

If you're looking for a skilled non-heroic character just don't give it any weapon proficiencies! NH8 may be CL 2 with a +6 BAB but if not proficient that -5 penalty would take a big bite out of that while still leaving the +4 modifier in skills untouched. NH may only get one trained skill but Skill Training AND Skill Focus are available to them as starting feats so something with INT 4 could still have 4 trained skills despite a -3 INT modifier.

When it comes to the level for the twins I'm afraid that their character point calculations could lead to a "better" guess at level. If Corinna needs to earn 1022 character points to advance her character to the point it is as listed if you figured 15 CP per "adventure" that's some 68 adventures! I seem to recall that DnD figured 13 encounters between levels so if we said "encounter = adventure" that may only be 5th-level; the thing is that I don't believe that DnD encounter = adventure but if I change adventure = defeating one CL of your level it only takes 5 of those to level up which would put her will into 13th-level. I guess that if you averaged those two thoughts you'd get 9th-level which is close to some of our earlier guesses.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2016, 07:55:49 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on May 02, 2016, 06:28:23 pm

Quote from: Luke Styer on May 02, 2016, 04:48:18 pm
Quote
the non-heroic class is actually relatively straightforward once you know how to use it.
Honestly, with a 3/4 BAB, the Non-Heroic class is a little more combat-effective than I'd prefer for building skilled non-combatants, but your explanation earlier in this thread has sort of opened my eyes up to it generally.
When it comes to the level for the twins I'm afraid that their character point calculations could lead to a "better" guess at level. If Corinna needs to earn 1022 character points to advance her character to the point it is as listed if you figured 15 CP per "adventure" that's some 68 adventures! I seem to recall that DnD figured 13 encounters between levels so if we said "encounter = adventure" that may only be 5th-level; the thing is that I don't believe that DnD encounter = adventure but if I change adventure = defeating one CL of your level it only takes 5 of those to level up which would put her will into 13th-level. I guess that if you averaged those two thoughts you'd get 9th-level which is close to some of our earlier guesses.

While I agree that your math looks good, you kind of forgot what you said earlier. So lets take a look at what you did say.

Quote from: StevenO on April 27, 2016, 05:25:04 pm

The "general rule" from pg 160 of the Revised and Expanded SWRPG says characters should receive 3-15 character points for each adventure. With that kind of "advancement rate" it shows just how high those numbers may be.

Those 3-15 character points/adventure does NOT average out to 15 character points.

The times that you get 15 points for one adventure should be a rare occurrence. The average should be about 8, maybe 10 if they are truly exceptional!

So that means about 100 adventures or more. Those 15 levels I proposed as the upper limit starts to look pretty good.

I would probably build these characters with about 12 levels for Corinna and maybe 8 levels for Kandria. As they would have 3-4 skills with Skill Focus each, they would awesome at social encounters and able to put up a fight if needed.

StevenO · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2016, 10:31:22 pm »

I didn't exactly forget what I had quoted about 3-15 CP being the target reward for adventures but simply chose to go with the high number because getting 1000+ CP at just 9 CP an "adventure" would take a LONG time. That makes it about 114 adventures which would be about 9th level at 13 "adventures"/level.

The Dark Side is Strong · « **Reply #24 on:** May 02, 2016, 11:30:28 pm »

Although, sometimes crunch becomes fluff

#protip - Never carry a single lightsaber. Carry several lightsabers, with interlocking hilts, so you can always benefit from two different lightsaber crystals while simultaneously wielding your lightsaber two-handed. It's every wielding a single lightsaber two-handed is **** up to be + an extra lightsaber crystal.

Luke Styer · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2016, 04:01:22 pm »

First try at a Nonheroic statblock. Please take a look and provide hints! Character description will follow.

Pahji Maht, Pilot

Medium Human Nonheroic 4
Init +5; Senses Perception +1
------
Defenses Ref 12 (ff 10), Fort 10, Will 9
hp 24; second wind +10; Threshold 10

Speed 6 squares
------
Melee Attack (standard)
Unarmed +2 (1d4-1) Provokes Attack of Opportunity

Ranged Attack (standard)
Blaster Pistol +5 (3d6)
------
Languages: Basic, Huttese
Base Atk +3; Grp +2
Abilities Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10
------
Feats Linguist, Skill Focus (Pilot), Skill Training (Use Computer) Vehicular Combat, Weapon Proficiency (pistols, simple)
------
Trained Skills Knowledge (Galactic Lore) +7, Pilot +12, Use Computer +7

Untrained Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +1, Deception +2, Endurance +2, Gather Information +2, Initiative +5, Jump +1, Knowledge (Galactic Lore) +9, Knowledge +2, Mechanics +2, Perception +1, Persuasion +2, Ride +5, Survival +1, Swim +1, Stealth +4, Treat Injury +2

------
Possessions Blaster Pistol, Cred Stick (71 credits)
------

StevenO · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2016, 10:40:48 pm »

Quote from: Luke Styer on May 05, 2016, 04:01:22 pm

First try at a Nonheroic statblock. Please take a look and provide hints! Character description will follow.
...
Medium Human Nonheroic 4
Init +5; Senses Perception +1
------
Defenses Ref 12 (ff 10), Fort 10, Will 9
hp 24; second wind +10; Threshold 10

Speed 6 squares
------
Melee Attack (standard)
Unarmed +2 (1d4-1) Provokes Attack of Opportunity

Ranged Attack (standard)
Blaster Pistol +5 (3d6)
------
Languages: Basic, Huttese
Base Atk +3; Grp +2
Abilities Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10
------
Feats Linguist, Skill Focus (Pilot), Skill Training (Use Computer) Vehicular Combat, Weapon Proficiency (pistols, simple)
------
Trained Skills Knowledge (Galactic Lore) +7, Pilot +12, Use Computer +7
...
------
Possessions Blaster Pistol, Cred Stick (71 credits)
------

NH4 would give a single +1 stat boost. Assuming that went into DEX you're looking at a PB 13 build; you should have 2 more points to spend!

Non-heroic characters do NOT get to catch a Second Wind. Nonheroic characters also do NOT get tripled maximum starting hitpoints; the maximum hp a CON 10 NH4 could have is 16 and using fixed hp/HD I'd place it at 12.

Feats: A Human NH 4 should have 2 general feats, human bonus feat, and 3 starting feats. The number looks good but you'd still need Linguist's INT 13 prereq to be able to use it (possibly affecting languages known although I do let most species know two languages). I'd give him AP (light) but part of that is because I still treat a basic flight suit as light armor if you want to benefit from the +1 Equipment bonus to FORT; here it would also let him wear a padded or armored flight suit if you wanted to boost his REF a bit. Plenty of other options as well.

Skills: You have Knowledge (galactic lore) listed twice. Mechanics can't be rolled untrained but is a skill a pilot probably should have trained.

Not a bad first attempt at using NH. If you consider that the "skilled" crew rating for vehicles equates to a NH3 you've got someone a bit better than that although when you throw in that skill focus his flying/pilot is actually at the "ace" level.

Luke Styer · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2016, 06:39:14 am »

Quote from: StevenO on May 05, 2016, 10:40:48 pm

NH4 would give a single +1 stat boost. Assuming that went into DEX you're looking at a PB 13 build; you should have 2 more points to spend!

Doh! I'm not sure why I tried to do the point buy calculations in my head when I was on a fricking computer when I built the character.

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Non-heroic characters do NOT get to catch a Second Wind.

That I didn't know.

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Nonheroic characters also do NOT get tripled maximum starting hitpoints; the maximum hp a CON 10 NH4 could have is 16 and using fixed hp/HD I'd place it at 12.

I started out building him as NH 8, but didn't scale back the hit points when I settled on 4.

Quote

Feats: A Human NH 4 should have 2 general feats, human bonus feat, and 3 starting feats. The number looks good but you'd still need Linguist's INT 13 prereq to be able to use it (possibly affecting languages known although I do let most species know two languages). I'd give him AP (light) but part of that is because I still treat a basic flight suit as light armor if you want to benefit from the +1 Equipment bonus to FORT; here it would also let him wear a padded or armored flight suit if you wanted to boost his REF a bit. Plenty of other options as well.

Good catch. When I fiddle with his stats I'll decide whether to move a point of WIS to INT and drop in those two phantom points or go the Light Armor route.

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Skills: You have Knowledge (galactic lore) listed twice. Mechanics can't be rolled untrained but is a skill a pilot probably should have trained.

I'm planning on giving him a mechanic sidekick, which is why I didn't train Mechanics, but if I bump up his INT, I'll have to rethink that decision.

Quote

Not a bad first attempt at using NH. If you consider that the "skilled" crew rating for vehicles equates to a NH3 you've got someone a bit better than that although when you throw in that skill focus his flying/pilot is actually at the "ace" level.

Thanks! I envision him as a really good pilot who isn't much good at anything else.

armyman_83 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 23, 2016, 12:32:43 am »

Quote from: StevenO on April 15, 2016, 10:43:03 pm

I know I've mentioned some views on non-heroic lately although I'm not sure if they were in one of your treads or another new board member. When you build with NH the game assumes you start with NH which should be "average galactic citizen" level stats which equate to PB 15. Non-heroic may not default to a lot of trained skills but Skill Training is available as a starting feat as is Skill Focus. While fewer trained skills may seem detrimental you need to remember that you can pack a lot more levels of NH into a give CL providing a nice boost to skills even if they aren't trained skills. If we look at a CL 4 NH8/Jedi1/Scoundrel1 it has a base +5 in all skills due to level where heroic 4 is just +2 despite having more trained skills. You may not get a lot of trained skills but you get a lot of ranks.

Yeah that was one of my threads.

I do wish that the core book would have specified the PB for non-heroics instead of making it like esoteric knowledge ha ha.

@Luke Styer: If you are building NPCs I highly highly highly recommend you look for Saga Sheet 1.4 (just google it). It is an excel file that makes crafting NPCs (or even PCs) a wonderful experience and crazy easy.

TheSagaContinues

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Author Topic: NPC Builds (Read 1190 times)

MERC_1

Re: NPC Builds

StevenO

Re: NPC Builds

Luke Styer

Re: NPC Builds

StevenO

Re: NPC Builds

MERC_1

Re: NPC Builds

Luke Styer

Re: NPC Builds

StevenO

Re: NPC Builds

MERC_1

Re: NPC Builds

StevenO

Re: NPC Builds

The Dark Side is Strong

Re: NPC Builds

Luke Styer

Re: NPC Builds

StevenO

Re: NPC Builds

Luke Styer

Re: NPC Builds

armyman_83

Re: NPC Builds