Author Topic: How would you utilize, and control, an item like this?  (Read 404 times)

StevenO

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How would you utilize, and control, an item like this?
« on: May 19, 2015, 02:42:54 pm »
The general concept is an artifact (think a Marvel Infinity Stone) that allows the holder to spend 2 FP, once per turn, to get a DP effect.  This could even include spending the DP to get 3 FP back in addition to what "normal" things spending a DP could do.  What I am curious about is:

1.  When would you consider such an item appropriate for use in a game?  While it could be used early I see this as something that extremely high level play (lv 13+) may center around.  Related to this is how would you use such an item in a game?

2.  What kinds of drawbacks/balancing methods would you use with such an item?


In regards to #2 the whole "once per turn" is mentioned simply to prevent the instant FP boost although I guess I'm not having this ignoring the restriction of only spending FP once per turn so it's redundant.  I'm thinking there should be a real risk of overcharging when used to boost FP along with chances at this item just consuming a player who isn't strong enough to control it.

I'm also thinking that a character would need to spend a FP (or should it be a DP) to gain the power to use this.  While I believe it should be held to be used I would also consider the possibility that it could be used as a lightsaber crystal or possibly being worked into some other weapon as an unlimited power pack.
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Z33B

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or possibly being worked into some other weapon as an unlimited power pack.

This. If its messing with force points or destiny points then we can safely assume its a lot of raw power contained in a tiny container. If you have the item radiate a very strong connection to the force then you could argue its use as a perpetual power source quite easily.
I like my heroes human, flawed and beatable. And failing every so often.
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StevenO

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or possibly being worked into some other weapon as an unlimited power pack.

This. If its messing with force points or destiny points then we can safely assume its a lot of raw power contained in a tiny container. If you have the item radiate a very strong connection to the force then you could argue its use as a perpetual power source quite easily.

Having it as an unlimited power pack is probably the least dangerous thing I'd worry about.  Ok, it could do a number with Heavy Blaster Rifles or Blaster Cannons but it's just lightening the load for repeating blasters.  I'm not sure how much everyone else worries about power back energy supplies but outside of a few cases I don't worry about it.
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Z33B

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Well if this thing is powerful enough, why bother stopping at simple things like weapons? Vehicles, fuel sources for ships, possibly a direct power source for a battle station
I like my heroes human, flawed and beatable. And failing every so often.
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MERC_1

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The general concept is an artifact (think a Marvel Infinity Stone) that allows the holder to spend 2 FP, once per turn, to get a DP effect.  This could even include spending the DP to get 3 FP back in addition to what "normal" things spending a DP could do.  What I am curious about is:

1.  When would you consider such an item appropriate for use in a game?  While it could be used early I see this as something that extremely high level play (lv 13+) may center around.  Related to this is how would you use such an item in a game?

2.  What kinds of drawbacks/balancing methods would you use with such an item?

That is an interesting arifact, but it may be too powerful for most games.

This would be something that the high level (evil?) force wizard would like to have. So it may be in the hands of a BBEG, another powerful NPC or something that both the NPC and the players are looking for. In this case, make DSP=Wis a requirement.

If this is used for good, DSP=0 would be required.

In any other case, I think that onece per enounter would be plenty if this is something the players can use.

StevenO

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Well if this thing is powerful enough, why bother stopping at simple things like weapons? Vehicles, fuel sources for ships, possibly a direct power source for a battle station

Because I'd want to require it to be "held in hand" to operate.  I'm also seeing this as a personal device instead instead of something that multiple people could 'use' at the same time which happens if you put it in vehicles and such.

Besides, I've already planned to utilize a ZPM type power source.  What do you think would power my hypothetical space fold ship?  Part of the adventure that would lead to getting that ship would involve returning the "heart" to the "sleeping princess" because without that power source it would just be a ship with 'normal' stats except using exotic tech.

As for the artifact is question I'm not even sure I'd want to use it unless I could come up with a good enough drawback from it.  I think it should be able to either cause people to burn out and/or have them be absorbed into the artifact. The question is what mechanics to use.
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Z33B

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Absorbing is iffy in the SW universe. From what evidence I've seen, only consciousness can be absorbed by something artificially created. This is the case with the thought bomb used by Darth Bane to finish off the brotherhood. All those entities were trapped within, but none of them were absorbed bodily into it. Now the idea of burning out seems far more plausible. If you grab onto a fallen power line, your going to be zapped. But if you hold onto it with the right protective gear, no harm. I think if you went with this option then there has to be some kind of maximum capacity that a mortal body can contain. Once that capacity is reached then the user experiences an overload and incinerates themselves. This could be used as a fantastic last stand for whatever user wields it. I can imagine a lightside user triggering a cascade effect similar to the combined lightside counter-attack unleashed against Exar Kun and incinerating/'purifying' a large area (but not enough to match that same incident). If a dark side user uses this as a killing blow you could draw on any of the great sith lord death effects: poisoning a planet's atmosphere, creating a force storm or something else along equally destructive and lethal effect.
I like my heroes human, flawed and beatable. And failing every so often.
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MasterArkaine

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Steven doing a thread about a very powerful item. Very interesting twist.

As far as its uses, MERC already covered most of my concerns. I agree with you Steven as well on keeping it hand-held.
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StevenO

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Steven doing a thread about a very powerful item. Very interesting twist.


Strange, I know.  That's why I'm asking when someone would think they would be appropriate and what steps could/should be taken to help contain these otherwise game, maybe even world, breaking items.  I'm not so against powerful items being used as a GM tool but they really need to be part of a campaign and should never be something that a PC can plan on.

Another crazy item I've posted previously is my Void lightsaber crystal property.  Crazy powerful against other Force Users (shutting down Force Powers along with other things) but barely stronger than an unattuned lightsaber against a normal opponent.  The attunement cost for this is extra high (at a DP instead of a FP) and if used unattuned the character may suffer all of those anti-force user effects himself.

I missed this one as I was busy typing up my own response when this came in.
That is an interesting arifact, but it may be too powerful for most games.

This would be something that the high level (evil?) force wizard would like to have. So it may be in the hands of a BBEG, another powerful NPC or something that both the NPC and the players are looking for. In this case, make DSP=Wis a requirement.

If this is used for good, DSP=0 would be required.

In any other case, I think that onece per enounter would be plenty if this is something the players can use.

When I consider "most games" should cap out with 12th-13th level heroes this certainly is too powerful for most games.

I wouldn't want it to be aligned although I know not everyone shares my somewhat gray view of the Force.  I see it as more of some goal to find and prevent from falling into enemy hands.  If found it may be used to prevent something very bad from happening but then should be retired afterwards.

If the players were to miss that DP can be converted into 3 FP then it would suffer a natural limit in use although having it limited to once per encounter would be wise if a GM intended to keep it around.

I guess I should note that I do entertain a house rule that allows FP to be spent to power the DP effects of Force Powers and Secrets.  The thing there is the conversion rate is going to be 5 or 6 FP to power the DP effect making it very limited in use.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 08:54:30 pm by StevenO »
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MERC_1

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This item has limitless usefulness. So you will have to limit it somehow. You could have this items use reinforce the effect of evil acts. So anything that gives you a DSP when using this device will actually give you 2 or 3 DSP instead!

The use of this device could be felt by any force user on the same planet, system or even sector.

Make it dangerous and unstable. Every time it is used in an encounter you roll a d20. If you role the same number or less then the number of times this device has been used in this encounter, the device trigger a destructive force power centered at the user. This could be powered by a DP...

Attroc

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I like the concept, its a grand scale of a really cool concept. Personally it seems that it is doing something very unnatural unless you're going to fluff it otherwise. Thus I would ether consider it a DSS=Wis requirement item or more flavorful, continued use of it corrupts the user. Perhaps an attack vs Will every time used, starting at +0, ending at +however many times used. Another limiter could be like the dark side was in previous editions. At certain intervals there is a chance that you simply get -1 con just from using the item if you're too steeped in the dark side, otherwise its an attack of some type against you. Unless you want to tell them how it works ahead of time, let it be a system that obviously tests them so the pcs meta minds know whats happening.

On the other hand, surprise punishment is fun! You could have a set number of used based off level any a stat perhaps. Doing so would make it so high level characters would be the best candidate to do so. A though for me is level + class bonus to will, so thus the deeper connected you are with the force (via prcs) the better you are. All of these are just off the sleeve examples and not an actual thought out idea. I may post some more thoughts as this neat process continues.
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MERC_1

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I like the concept, its a grand scale of a really cool concept. Personally it seems that it is doing something very unnatural unless you're going to fluff it otherwise. [...]
With this in mind you could just have the item "give" the user a DSP each time it is used!

StevenO

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Having such an item increase a DSS could be a balancing factor but that will depend on how a GM treats Darkside characters.  The other problem with that is that having it increase the DSS would point to an item that a Darksider could use with impunity; as I envision this I'd want it to be as hazardous to a darksider as it would be a 'good guy' although having a darksider trying to abuse this is more likely.

Something I'm almost finding funny is that while I think we all could agree that an item allowing a character to spend 2 FP per turn as if spending a DP is powerful we can occasionally run into a similar issue in a normal game if someone is hording DP.  How many have seen what should be an epic battle reduced to ashes just because one character chose that time to spam a number of DP?  If used only for one encounter this artifact may not be so powerful compared to DP hording but when it could be used encounter after encounter it certainly is.
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MERC_1

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Having such an item increase a DSS could be a balancing factor but that will depend on how a GM treats Darkside characters.  The other problem with that is that having it increase the DSS would point to an item that a Darksider could use with impunity; as I envision this I'd want it to be as hazardous to a darksider as it would be a 'good guy' although having a darksider trying to abuse this is more likely.

For the atuning of this artefact, lets give it a Will Defence score. You could start it at Will Defence 25 if you like.
So after spending 12 hours of meditation you roll a Use the Force check. If you beat the Will Defence of the item you are atuned and can start using the item. Also, the new Will Defence of the item is your Will Defence at the time of atunement. However, if you fail there is a force feedback from the item and you suffer the effect of a damaging force power of the GMs choice.

Each time the PC/NPC uses the artefact, roll a D20 (or D10...). If the roll is less or the same as the number of times you have used the artefact in an encounter (or day, week, month or ever according tho the wiches of the GM) you suffer the same effect of the Force Power as before, but this is also powered by the DP doing even more damage!

If this is not tough enough, you could always make the damage persitent.

So, this should make this a usefull but dangerous item. What do you think StevenO?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:07:01 pm by MERC_1 »

StevenO

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For the atuning of this artefact, lets give it a Will Defence score. You could start it at Will Defence 25 if you like.
So after spending 12 hours of meditation you roll a Use the Force check. If you beat the Will Defence of the item you are atuned and can start using the item. Also, the new Will Defence of the item is your Will Defence at the time of atunement. However, if you fail there is a force feedback from the item and you suffer the effect of a damaging force power of the GMs choice.

Each time the PC/NPC uses the artefact, roll a D20 (or D10...). If the roll is less or the same as the number of times you have used the artefact in an encounter (or day, week, month or ever according tho the wiches of the GM) you suffer the same effect of the Force Power as before, but this is also powered by the DP doing even more damage!

If this is not tough enough, you could always make the damage persitent.

So, this should make this a usefull but dangerous item. What do you think StevenO?

A big part of this thread is just as a thought exercise.  To put that another way I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer to anything although I'll put out my thoughts now and then.

While we all know this would be most dangerous in the hands of a Force User a good part of me would also want it usable by a non-Force Sensitive.  This would make requiring a UtF check to "attune" it impossible although a UtF check could be one of several ways to get the item working.  I'd think Persuasion or Deception could also be used which would still make CHA the governing ability which it probably should be.

I'm not exactly sure about that attunement DC target.  If someone attunes the Artifact to them and then the DC moves to that character's WILL Defense I'm thinking DC 25 as a starting point would be very low.  Very low as is an 8th-level hero could easily have that (Force Adept w/ WIS 16) and I'd expect this to be handled by the mighty powers which would make DC 30 or even 35 look more appropriate.  I guess setting the DC all would depend on when you'd expect someone to pick this up but DC 25 could be easy for a 6th level character w/ Focus and a +2 ability modifier.  Now having failure cause damage is certainly something that should be considered.

I was looking at that roll or else suffer mechanic and see on problem as presented; it is asking for a LOW roll which is something 3e (and by extension SWSE) was trying to do away with.  Of course the presentation can be changed to make it work.  My thought on such a thing is that every time it is used the Artifact would make an attack against the user's FORT (or WILL, all depends on what the GM wants) with a +X bonus based on how frequently (perhaps even cumulatively) been being used.  An attack against FORT of d20+X (what ever starting value) + Y (use modifier) and when it hits bad things start to happen.

You know Merc, I think you may have seen some of the same visions as I was seeing when it comes to making drawbacks.  I may even have had the Artifact attack the character who is trying to attune to use it but I see a test of WILL to see if it can be used but then a test of FORT to see how long it could be used.
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