Author Topic: Help with Jump Boot Jockey Concept (Vehicle Combat Feat)  (Read 266 times)

StevenO

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There might be some words missing from your post, StevenO. All good. If you're saying you could remove the jetpack from the armor, yeah, that's debatable. The armor is statted in Scum & Villainy 48. Again, not the concept I was going for.

To your earlier point about avoiding the "prone" part of Dive for Cover, that would not be the intention at all. There should still be an action cost to getting back up. I was just soliciting thoughts about how jetpacks and that feat work together. As an unrelated aside, I made a tank-spec NPC Sith that had Block/Deflect but also Dive for Cover. He really kept the party going for many rounds. With Acrobatics he could stand as a free action. Really great feat.

You know how some have tried to extrapolate stats for some things based on other things; I could see someone doing that to those armor for a "constantly available" jetpack.  I know several other armors, although most are in organization sections instead of standard equipment sections, include jetpacks as standard equipment on them.

I kind of liked the Dive For Cover idea although I do feel the need to punch the necessary holes in it.  How often does a houserule get tossed in without actually realizing the full consequences of its use and potential abuse?

As for the Block/Deflect/Dive character here I'd just point out that all of those things are reactions and thus you'd only need to worry about one of them.

As much as I think I've figured out the type of character you may be trying to make I just don't want to make a character with a fly speed all that much more special than they already are.  If your artificial flying device doesn't also change a bunch of other things (like a vehicle with its own hp, defense scores, and other rules) then why would a creature who could naturally fly be deprived of those same things?  Now if something can do it with its natural movement why would that need to be constrained to flight?

Now a feat to consider for a flier may be Running Attack.  This gives you more options to fly out and attack before flying back to relative safety.
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DroidDreamer

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You know how some have tried to extrapolate stats for some things based on other things; I could see someone doing that to those armor for a "constantly available" jetpack.  I know several other armors, although most are in organization sections instead of standard equipment sections, include jetpacks as standard equipment on them.

I think it's a GM call as to whether the jetpack can be separated from the armor. I personally doubt it but I would probably allow it if the PC had a good rationale for it.

As for the Block/Deflect/Dive character here I'd just point out that all of those things are reactions and thus you'd only need to worry about one of them.

Precisely. One reaction only. But since there is a cumulative penalty on Block/Deflect each round, this allowed the Sith Juggernaut a few Blocks/Deflects and then he could turn to Dive for Cover as a back up once the penalty got too high. Cinematically perfect in so many ways with the saber user literally diving for cover to stay alive.

As much as I think I've figured out the type of character you may be trying to make I just don't want to make a character with a fly speed all that much more special than they already are.  If your artificial flying device doesn't also change a bunch of other things (like a vehicle with its own hp, defense scores, and other rules) then why would a creature who could naturally fly be deprived of those same things?  Now if something can do it with its natural movement why would that need to be constrained to flight?

Now a feat to consider for a flier may be Running Attack.  This gives you more options to fly out and attack before flying back to relative safety.

Like I said, I'm not really seeing a way to do it under RAW (Character scale use of Vehicle Combat though the Dive For Cover option doesn't seem as much of a stretch). Your point about how you can effectively do this under RAW if you just drop the jetpack and use feats like Running Attack is also why it's such a shame that you can't do it under RAW. The rules permit this sort of playstyle in other ways but not in terms of the character concept I wanted to put together. All good; for me the fun is in the tinkering.

DroidDreamer

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Ok here is where I landed. Looks fun as hell and within the rules except where noted below. Assuming 32 point buy here but use your own point buy rules if you want. This character concept makes for an awesome, nimble but deadly Rocket Boot Jockey of the underworld, Jet Pack Trooper in a military concept or Huttball ball runner (a form of football Star Wars the Old Republic).

I was able to find some suitable "armor" that looks more like regular clothes. The Swoop Biker's Garb (as Padded Flight Suit; see Dawn of Defiance 2; pg 17) allows you to basically make your own outfit in terms of look. I imagine it as Coruscant Entertainment District Underworld street style.

This is a highly mobile build. The Long Strider talent grants Move Speed 8 and with the repulsorlift armor upgrade activated you can ignore difficult terrain and take 1/2 damage from falls for 40 rounds without recharging. The Sidestep talent permits diagonal movement without the 2x cost with just a Swift action. And of course Rocket Boots (as Jet Pack) add the ultimate in Star Wars cinematic mobility!!!

Defensive capabilities start with Running Attack to permit highly mobile strafing while staying behind cover. The Dive for Cover with Skill Focus Jump and the Jump Servos armor upgrade makes this PC or NPC able to avoid one attack per round, landing prone but behind cover. With a +16 Jump and the Jump Servos, the PC can jump 4 squares horizontally by default before any roll. The Jump Servos allow you to take 10: you can jump 6 squares by taking ten.

Lastly, this build packs some punch with a blaster pistol build and an Ascension Gun that adds further utility and mobility.

Rocket Boot Jockey (Human Scout3/Soldier 3)
Str 16
Dex 18 (including +1 at 4th Level)
Con 12
Int 12 (including +1 at 4th Level; pick up Acrobatics skill)
Wis 8
Cha 10

BASE ATTACK BONUS: 5

SKILLS
Jump +16, Acrobatics +12, Pilot +12, Stealth +12, Perception +7, Endurance +6

TALENTS
--Long Strider: +2 Move Speed (Scout 1)
--Armored Defense: Choose Armor or Level Reflex Bonus (Soldier 1)
--Sidestep: Swift action to reduce cost of diagonal move to 1 if in light or no armor (Scout 3)
--Jet Pack Training: Activate jet pack as free, no Pilot check to land (Soldier 3)

FEATS
--Shake It Off, WP Rifles, Pistols, Simple (Scout Starting Feats)
--Skill Focus Jump (Human Bonus Starting Feat)
--Dive for Cover: 1/turn as reaction when targeted by ranged attack make horizontal Jump to gain Cover bonus & land prone (Heroic 1)
--Armor Proficiency Light (Soldier Starting Feat)
--Running Attack: Move before and after an attack (Scout 2)
--Point Blank Shot (Heroic 3)
--Precise Shot (Soldier 2)
--Weapon Focus Pistol (Heroic 6)

ATTACKS
Ascension Gun +7 in Point Blank Range 3d8 +4

POSSESSIONS

Swoop Biker's Garb (as Padded Flight Suit; see Dawn of Defiance 2; pg 17) 5kg 2000cr
--Armorplast: 50% weight reduction to 2.5 kg 900cr 0 Upgrade Points
--Repulsorlift Armor Upgrade 1000cr 1 Upgrade Point
--Jump Servos: Treat any jump as running, reroll Jump take better, take 10 on Jump 1 Upgrade Point 100cr
--Tech Specialist +1 Upgrade Point 1000cr**
--Stripping (Defensive Material: -1 Reflex Bonus) +1 Upgrade Point 1000cr
--Internal Generator Armor Upgrade +10kg 1000cr 1 Upgrade Points
--Notes: This padded armor is cut in Coruscant Entertainment District Underworld street style. Repulsorlift upgrade appears as micro repulsorlift engines primarily in the boots of the armor, giving the wearer the appearance of "skating," but supporting repulsorlift engines are mounted in the wears palms when active to help cushion falls and for added control. The Internal Generator can power the repulsorlift engines for 40 rounds before needing to recharge for one hour.
--**House Rule Note: Our group permits using Tech Specialist to add +1 Upgrade Point to armor, weapons & vehicles, not just devices. Remove Jump Servos if you don't allow this rule. Alternatively, you can keep the Jump Servos, remove the Internal Generator upgrade and add a Power Generator possession to the character.

Rocket Boots (as Jet Pack) 30kg 300cr
--Miniaturized upgrade: Reduces size; -50% weight to kg 500cr
--Storage Capacity upgrade (used for Fuel Cell storage) 0 Upgrade Points 100cr
--Notes: Rocket engines are built into a sturdy armored boot. Functions as a normal jetpack.

Ascension Gun 2kg 1200cr
--+1 Accuracy Tech Specialist 1000cr
--Notes: Swift action to switch modes, spd 12 sq up as vertical tether or zipline, lift 720 kg, in ascension mode range is 30sq, -5 Stealth to conceal, 2 uses of synthrope
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 09:08:01 am by DroidDreamer »

StevenO

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...

Rocket Boot Jockey (Human Scout3/Soldier 3)
Spoiler (hover to show)

A few things I'd say about all that:
1.  While it may make Sidestep worth much less, granted I think it is already worth little except when it breaks diagonal motion, I strongly encourage a houserule treating diagon movement as 1.5 squared (counted 1,2,1,2,... for each diagonal step) which is FAR FAR closer to the true distance for diagonal movement than counting it as 1 or 2 squares all the time.  It's not that much harder to count and when the true distance for a diagonal is the sqrt(2)=1.4ish you're off by about 6% instead of 29% or 41% for counting 1 or 2.

2.  With above houserule you should change Sidestep to Evasion (what better way to duck damage?) and may even want to change Long Stride to something else.

3.  You don't have Acrobatics as a class skill from either Scout or Soldier and thus are not allowed to select it when you can gain a new skill from boosting INT modifier.  The classes that offer Acrobatics are Scoundrel (which means a loss of BAB but would let you get Point Blank Shot with the starting feat) and Jedi (d10 hD, full BAB, either starting feat could be useful depending on future goals, LOTs of talents to choose from) so if you're losing Sidestep a level in Jedi could put Acrobatics on your class skill list anyway with many possible talents to choose from to help in any other area.

4.  You should double your value for Tech Specialist upgrades unless your party has someone with Tech Specialist who is doing the work.  Sorry but the upgrades are cheap enough but if you aren't doing it yourself you should be paying the MARKET VALUE of the upgrades which is twice what they cost.  This market value is in the book!

5.  Not a big one but if we're talking about house rules how about "Athletics" instead of Jump?  While that skill normally combines Jump and Climb and often Swim as well you can keep the applications of those skills, and most equipment that would help those skills, specific to what they originally were.  IE your boots may help your "Jump" application of Athletics but wouldn't help the "Climb" aspect of the skill.

Other than these things I don't think it's too bad although I guess I'd dump CHA instead of WIS.  -1 on my Social skills, which aren't great to start with, may not be nice but I think it's better than the -1 on WILL Defense (which could incapacitate you) and the hit to Perception.  I generally like a good Perception score to avoid having Surprise Rounds and thus avoid the flat-footedness that can come with them.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 06:22:26 pm by StevenO »
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MERC_1

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27. Cad Bane

Winning entry by awaypturwpn

[...]

Magno-Grip Boots
These boots require a swift action to activate. When activated, they allow the wearer to walk on metal surfaces without falling off (or drifting off in zero gravity) but also reduce the wearer’s speed by 2 squares. Additionally, when activated and on a metal surface, they grant a +5 equipment bonus to defences or checks made to resist being tripped or unwillingly moved. Cad Bane has attached two customised Mitrinomon jetpack thrusters (treat as a jet pack [SECR 138]) to the boots. Using the equipment upgrades from Scum and Villainy, Cad Bane’s magno-grip boots are considered to have the dual gear upgrade. They can be worn with armour, unless the armour has footwear.
Cost not for sale; weight 5.6kg; availability unique.
 

Just thinking that these maybe relevant.

DroidDreamer

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27. Cad Bane

Winning entry by awaypturwpn

[...]

Magno-Grip Boots
These boots require a swift action to activate. When activated, they allow the wearer to walk on metal surfaces without falling off (or drifting off in zero gravity) but also reduce the wearer’s speed by 2 squares. Additionally, when activated and on a metal surface, they grant a +5 equipment bonus to defences or checks made to resist being tripped or unwillingly moved. Cad Bane has attached two customised Mitrinomon jetpack thrusters (treat as a jet pack [SECR 138]) to the boots. Using the equipment upgrades from Scum and Villainy, Cad Bane’s magno-grip boots are considered to have the dual gear upgrade. They can be worn with armour, unless the armour has footwear.
Cost not for sale; weight 5.6kg; availability unique.
 

Just thinking that these maybe relevant.

Highly relevant. But is that a home brew item?

MERC_1

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It's from one of the character building competitions:
http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/the-arena/the-new-you-build-the-character-hall-of-fame/25/?

Quote
Jet Pack

A jet pack is a propulsion system that a character can strap on, allowing flight over short distances. Arm and wrist controls are employed for maneuvering.

Activating a jet pack is a swift action, and you gain a fly speed of 6 squares until the end of your turn. A jet pack has 10 charges and can be run continuously; no swift action is required to activate the jet pack on subsequent rounds of use.

Routine maneuvers do not require a Pilot check, but you must make a DC 20 Pilot check if you land after moving more than 12 squares during the same turn; on a failure, you fall prone.

A jet pack can lift up to 180 kg while flying. Replacement fuel cells cost 100 credits.

Do you think Jet Packs are too cumbersome? No problem!

Take a Jet Pack for 300 credits.
Add an extra upgrade slot with Tech Specialist 1,000 credits.
Miniaturize twice for 2 x 500 credits.
Total cost: 2,300 credits.
Total weight: 7.5 kg

There are ways to get the Jet Pack even smaller, but we can get into that if we need to.



DroidDreamer

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A few things I'd say about all that:
1.  While it may make Sidestep worth much less, granted I think it is already worth little except when it breaks diagonal motion, I strongly encourage a houserule treating diagon movement as 1.5 squared (counted 1,2,1,2,... for each diagonal step) which is FAR FAR closer to the true distance for diagonal movement than counting it as 1 or 2 squares all the time.  It's not that much harder to count and when the true distance for a diagonal is the sqrt(2)=1.4ish you're off by about 6% instead of 29% or 41% for counting 1 or 2.

All good if folks want to throw out the diagonals-count-as-two-squares rule but I personally don't mind it. I personally had a hard time with 1,2,1,2 in other games but that's a GM call.

A few things I'd say about all that:
2.  With above houserule you should change Sidestep to Evasion (what better way to duck damage?) and may even want to change Long Stride to something else.

Yeah, even without the house rule, you could swap in Evasion for Sidestep for even further cinematic damage avoidance. The build has plenty of mobility. While we're at it, the Advantageous Cover feat goes great with this build. You take no damage from area attacks if behind cover (Normal: take no damage from area attacks that miss your Reflex if behind cover). Effectively allows you to jump behind cover -- even soft cover -- and take no area attack damage even if it hits!

3.  You don't have Acrobatics as a class skill from either Scout or Soldier and thus are not allowed to select it when you can gain a new skill from boosting INT modifier.  The classes that offer Acrobatics are Scoundrel (which means a loss of BAB but would let you get Point Blank Shot with the starting feat) and Jedi (d10 hD, full BAB, either starting feat could be useful depending on future goals, LOTs of talents to choose from) so if you're losing Sidestep a level in Jedi could put Acrobatics on your class skill list anyway with many possible talents to choose from to help in any other area.

Yes! I was originally think of dipping into Scoundrel before level 4 which also gets you Point Blank Shot but forgot to include it in the build. Or you could pick up a Background that permits that. Yes, StevenO, I know you don't like Backgrounds. ;)

4.  You should double your value for Tech Specialist upgrades unless your party has someone with Tech Specialist who is doing the work.  Sorry but the upgrades are cheap enough but if you aren't doing it yourself you should be paying the MARKET VALUE of the upgrades which is twice what they cost.  This market value is in the book!

Yep. Also did not include licensing costs. Most groups have a PC or droid with Tech Specialist though.

5.  Not a big one but if we're talking about house rules how about "Athletics" instead of Jump?  While that skill normally combines Jump and Climb and often Swim as well you can keep the applications of those skills, and most equipment that would help those skills, specific to what they originally were.  IE your boots may help your "Jump" application of Athletics but wouldn't help the "Climb" aspect of the skill.

We use the Athletics house rule and I absolutely love it. But I was trying to keep it to RAW as much as possible. I think the Repulsorlift gives a Climb bonus too (cannot recall) so Athletics would work even better for this rule.

Other than these things I don't think it's too bad although I guess I'd dump CHA instead of WIS.  -1 on my Social skills, which aren't great to start with, may not be nice but I think it's better than the -1 on WILL Defense (which could incapacitate you) and the hit to Perception.  I generally like a good Perception score to avoid having Surprise Rounds and thus avoid the flat-footedness that can come with them.

Charisma is definitely a better dump stat but I was thinking Wisdom worked better to give the build a "reckless" vibe. :D

StevenO

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3.  You don't have Acrobatics as a class skill from either Scout or Soldier and thus are not allowed to select it when you can gain a new skill from boosting INT modifier.  ...

Yes! I was originally think of dipping into Scoundrel before level 4 which also gets you Point Blank Shot but forgot to include it in the build. Or you could pick up a Background that permits that. Yes, StevenO, I know you don't like Backgrounds. ;)

4.  You should double your value for Tech Specialist upgrades unless your party has someone with Tech Specialist who is doing the work.  Sorry but the upgrades are cheap enough but if you aren't doing it yourself you should be paying the MARKET VALUE of the upgrades which is twice what they cost.  This market value is in the book!

Yep. Also did not include licensing costs. Most groups have a PC or droid with Tech Specialist though.
...

As long as you know that view on Backgrounds although you should also keep my reasoning for it in mind.  While I want a character to have some kind of background I'm not a fan of using that to throw out various key game mechanics and the class skill list one starts with is a big thing when it comes to a character.  I'll even recognize that sometimes your desired class may not have all the class skills you want but that's why I say "4 levels to recognize pretty much any character concept" and it's also why my house rules include a first level only talent that will modify a character's skill availability (either one more trained or one more on the list) along with providing a bonus talent.

Interesting, which stock droids have Tech Specialist listed as one of their feats?  Sorry, I'm not a fan of groups getting/designing their own, usually heroic, NPC droid and expecting it to advance right along with the PCs without actually costing the PCs any XP because it's there; it makes a great/dirty way to min/max aspects of the party without the party actually needing to put (additional) resources into something.


You're right about WIS being the appropriate dump stat for someone who "doesn't think about the consequences of something" before they do it.  It also clouds their Perception and makes them easier to manipulate when that is what you're going for.

I maybe shouldn't mention it but even if you're supposed to be building stats with a generous PB 32 you're already 3 points over that.  You spend 26 points to start with two 17s and then 9 more points getting the 12 (4), 11 (3), and 10 (2) for a total of 35 points!  Drop that STR to 16 (not that the 17 does you much good except for a higher encumbrance) and you're back to 32 points; drop it to 14 you bring it to standard levels and still have a pretty interesting character.
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DroidDreamer

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The stats are there for illustration, as noted in the post. But I didn't do the math! I used this Saga Edition point buy calculator and then added the 4th level stat bonuses:

http://fireburnb14n.page.tl/Point-Buy-Calculator.htm

DroidDreamer

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The stats are there for illustration, as noted in the post. But I didn't do the math! I used this Saga Edition point buy calculator and then added the 4th level stat bonuses:

http://fireburnb14n.page.tl/Point-Buy-Calculator.htm

Ok, I must have copied the stats wrong. I think I just need to adjust the Str to 16. I'll edit the post.