Author Topic: Hangar bays  (Read 252 times)

Dessertblade

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Hangar bays
« on: March 28, 2019, 07:14:04 am »
Hello there, I was looking in the SotG book and I have seen the Hangar Bay accesory. The cost in EP seems reasonable, converting EP in Hangar space, but what it doesn't seem very king is the conversion for greater ships in said hangar:
For 8 EP in a Frigate, you can get a Huge ship in there. Seems reasonable, loking at 8 EP are like 400 tons of cargo of space.
The problem is that if you try to seize a Gargantuan Ship, you have to pay 40 EP, the equivalent of 2.000 tons of cargo. Too much for a single X-Wing, don't you think?
But the worst is with Colossal starships, with an inversion of 160 EP and 8.000 tons of cargo. Totally out of the charts for a normal Colossal (Frigate) Starship.

But then you see that some starships like the Marauder have not only space for 12 starfighters but for 2 landing barges and 4 shuttles. The book doesn't specify what they are, but if we assume that a "landing barge" is something like a LAAT/i (theorically is for deployment of troops in land) and a Shuttle follows the rules of the Stock Shuttle, the Marauder has space for 12 Gargantuan Starships and 6 Colossal Starships, with a total ammount of 1.440 EP used in the Hangar Bays.

I think that the problem is that a Gargantuan Starship doesn't consume the space of 5 Huge starships. The X-Wing has a length of 12.65m (according to Wookiepedia) where the TIE fighter has a length of 7.24m. In the space of a X-wing you could bring two, maybe three, TIE fighters, but not more. In this image we can see that the same happens between the YT-1300 and the X-Wing, with two, maybe three X-wings able to fit in the space of an YT.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o73H1j5djf8/VwN85iFhIzI/AAAAAAAABAo/EmzuchNQVGc0rIMLrJO4D3MeK5ctxPq3Q/s1600/DSCN1776s.jpg

What do you think? Does the hangar need any patch to fix this or do you think that is balanced?

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 09:05:18 am »
Hangar bays are a tricky subject that probably aren't handled well by the rules with a "one size fits all" modification.  I know I'll increase the space requirements for Huge ships (making the difference between them and gargantuan ships smaller) but I also mess with how many "units" the modifications give.  As MODIFICATIONS you probably never should have a ship that's as space efficient as a purpose built ship which can just ignore all of those modification/construction rules.

Codex ships were often "built" without any kind of concern for consistency much less even given a thought about game balance and the like. The Marauder is perhaps the biggest offender when it comes to codex ships.  Hangar space for 18 HUGE ships on a ship that size is already a lot so giving it room for so many more ships is extremely generous.  Now if you're using that ship for hangar space I might let things slide but it drives me nuts if someone says they want to "strip out" all of that hangar space for EP at that rate described.  This is when I go to figuring the fighters are certainly no more than Huge in size (if it carries bigger fighters then it carries fewer) and I'm figuring fighter sized shuttles (you can fit a number of people in ship built using gargantuan stock and even huge stock) and perhaps even landing craft; this last one is even assuming fighters and these larger ships could all be carried at the same time because the listings aren't really good about distinguishing between various loads and may just state the maximum for those numbers using any configuration even when you can't have all of it at the same time.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

Dessertblade

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2019, 09:49:46 am »
First thing to say is that I think the Marauder has hangar for Gargantuan Starfighters because the Starfighters of the CSA are or that size (IRD Starfighters, page 156 Rebellion book). Second is that I think the Marauder can have all that ships because is in the SotG book, and that book usually gives you the different combinations of starships when they are relevant. Because the Marauder doesn't says anything, I think that is its default configuration.

I  thought a rework of 8 EP for Huge Starfighters and ships, 20 EP for Gargantuan and 50-60 EP for Colossal starships, but I see that you would houserule it to make more difficult to include hangars in frigates. What rule are you thinking and why?

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 11:14:14 am »
I certainly know where you get the idea that the Marauder hold Gargantuan sized fighters because that is what size is given the IRD Fighters; personally I always thought they were smaller than that.  If it is sized for that many fighters of that size then I'm really assuming the "ships carried" is an either-or type situation; maybe it's carrying a squadron of fighters or its carrying the transport craft.  In any event it doesn't mean that "shuttles" are always colossal ships and landing barges may not be that big either.  As for SotG being good about listing things in "various configurations and spelling out when that happens" I call hogwash; much of what you see in there when you get to the "less mechanical" nature of ships is often copy/pasted from previous versions of the game which in turn probably come from some writer who has no care about game effects and just follows the "rule of cool" which makes everything possible.

Each time you select it you get (cost modifier/50) "units" of hangar space thus a Frigate size ships gets one "hangar unit" for each 8 EP but a cruiser would get ten for that same EP.  While listed as "frigate or larger" I have messed with the idea of allowing it on a colossal ship although then the EP requirement to carry a single ship jump greatly.  While I'll admit they haven't been properly tested the house rules I consider make Huge ships take 2 units of space (so just a little less than half a gargantuan fighter because if I could pack 5 huge fighters in a space I could only pack a single gargantuan fighter why am I using gargantuan fighters?) and for colossal ships I may have varying requirements for those simply because that range covers a lot of ground.  Now the BIGGER change that really needs testing for abuse it changing the hangar units/ship size ratio; going from (cost mod/50) to (cost mod/10) gives you 5x the hangar space instantly and means that for 8 EP your frigate sized ship now has room for a single gargantuan fighter instead of just a single huge.  I believe these are the rules I used when I designed my Q-Ship which began with a heavy freighter stock (after all it's supposed to look like a freighter and I still wanted it to have cargo capacity to it could function as such and not aroused too much suspicion in port) where I gave it concealed hangar space for 4 huge fighters, a couple Blast Boats (which I don't think are as "colossal" as other ships) and one colossal assault shuttle type ship in addition to giving it hidden weapons.


PS.  I might mention that another area of the "modification rules" that always drives me a bit nuts are the extended range upgrades which are so variable because they are based on initial stats.  For those I generally draw up "levels" of consumables and taking the upgrade moves you up that list instead of just being tied to the ship's listed consumables.  Don't hold me to it but I believe the levels I used when as such:  1 day, 2 day, 5 day/week, 2 week, 4week/month, 2-3 months*, 6 months, year, 2 years*, 5 years with the possibility of there being another step or two in there.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 11:34:28 am by StevenO »
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

Dessertblade

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 12:32:26 pm »
So you increase the cost of Huge Fighters from 1 to 2 and then modify to take by 8 EP five times hangar as before. That would be a reduction of 250% of load to Huge Fighters and a 500% reduction for Gargantuan and Colossal starships. In the line with the proportions of the rule rule I thought of 8-20-60.

The thing is that I believe that is a little too much. With so minimum the cost of EP literally any ship could bring starfighters, and bring hundreds of them. I know 8EP are 8 EP but that quiantity is easy to obtain with only 400 ton of cargo, and a frigate could spare 2.500 ton to obtain EP easily (the max until the starship is considered non-standard) and bring...

48EP= 6 Hangar accesories= 30 hangar units, well enough for 15 Huge SF, 6 Gargantuan SF or a Colossal transport and 2 Gargantuan SF.

But I like not be the only one who see the Hangar bay modification a little to harsh.

PS. You are right, that doesn't seem reasonable, because you effectively use tons of cargo that are always the same, so the value of each spent ton of cargo should be the same in all starships.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 12:34:54 pm by Dessertblade »

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 02:27:51 pm »
...The thing is that I believe that is a little too much. With so minimum the cost of EP literally any ship could bring starfighters, and bring hundreds of them. I know 8EP are 8 EP but that quiantity is easy to obtain with only 400 ton of cargo, and a frigate could spare 2.500 ton to obtain EP easily (the max until the starship is considered non-standard) and bring...

48EP= 6 Hangar accesories= 30 hangar units, well enough for 15 Huge SF, 6 Gargantuan SF or a Colossal transport and 2 Gargantuan SF.

....
It may be too much increasing the hangar space allowance x5 in a general sense even if huge fighters don't get quite that much benefit.  Of course it does help answer that common gripe that "I can't come close to giving a ship as much hangar space as a codex ship because of how much EP it eats.

As for the conversion to cargo space have you put a lot of thought into how much "space" 8 EP of frigate level cargo takes up?  That is 400 tons but how much space are you allowing per ton?  Looking some stuff up and hoping it's right that many tons of water would require 282.5 cubic feet of water which I guess come down so something close to a 2m cube which I admit isn't all that much.  However I also think that the commodity (feed) trucks are generally limited to about 25 tons each and thus 400 tons would take 16 semi-trailers for something that admittedly is much less dense.  I guess this falls into that area of how cargo capacity is measured because volume and weight aren't always the same thing.

Said it before but will say it again: hangar modifications are one of those areas you really need to work with your GM because what you see in the book isn't always logical or even crunch very well.  Passenger seating and quarters I actually respect and they can come out to reasonable number (as in passengers/cargo ton is the same regardless of size) but there's so much less variation in what you expect to see there as opposed to trying to size up vehicles even within a size category.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

ZehnWaters

  • Jedi Knight
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 09:17:42 am »
The Nebulon-B is supposed to hold a squadron of fighters.  Go look up its size compared to the Falcon and tell me how that makes sense.  So even canon sources don't make sense.
-ZehnWaters, the Silaglaren

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 12:37:24 pm »
The Nebulon-B is supposed to hold a squadron of fighters.  Go look up its size compared to the Falcon and tell me how that makes sense.  So even canon sources don't make sense.
Only a squadron?  Here I thought it was TWO squadrons or 24 fighters!

It's another great example of "canon" sources that may be completely unrealistic (assuming most basic physics still hold) and certainly not all that well balanced for game play.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

ZehnWaters

  • Jedi Knight
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2019, 03:19:16 pm »
The Nebulon-B is supposed to hold a squadron of fighters.  Go look up its size compared to the Falcon and tell me how that makes sense.  So even canon sources don't make sense.
Only a squadron?  Here I thought it was TWO squadrons or 24 fighters!

It's another great example of "canon" sources that may be completely unrealistic (assuming most basic physics still hold) and certainly not all that well balanced for game play.

Used to be in the old Canon.  New canon dropped it down.  Neither make sense.
-ZehnWaters, the Silaglaren

MERC_1

  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • ******
  • Posts: 1726
  • Keeper of the sacred blade
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2019, 04:22:10 pm »
As for the conversion to cargo space have you put a lot of thought into how much "space" 8 EP of frigate level cargo takes up?  That is 400 tons but how much space are you allowing per ton?  Looking some stuff up and hoping it's right that many tons of water would require 282.5 cubic feet of water which I guess come down so something close to a 2m cube which I admit isn't all that much. 
Your calculations are way off!

400 (metric) tons = 400 cubic meters of water. (or 14,800 cubic feet)
That is a 7.4 x 7.4 x 7.4 m cube.

So that is 50 times the volume of your 2x2x2 m cube.

The Nebulon-B is supposed to hold a squadron of fighters.  Go look up its size compared to the Falcon and tell me how that makes sense.  So even canon sources don't make sense.
The Nebulon-B is 300 m long and the Millennium Falcon is about 35 m long. So, the Nebulon-B is about 8.5 times as long as the falcon.
If they were of similar shape that would give the Nebulon-B more than 600 times the volume of the Falcon. They are not nearly shaped the same, but it is close enough as an approximation. Now I think that a Nebulon-B would carry the Falcon externally as seen on film. It could probably carry the Falcon internally as well, but that would push out half of that squadron or more.

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2019, 04:37:58 pm »
As for the conversion to cargo space have you put a lot of thought into how much "space" 8 EP of frigate level cargo takes up?  That is 400 tons but how much space are you allowing per ton?  Looking some stuff up and hoping it's right that many tons of water would require 282.5 cubic feet of water which I guess come down so something close to a 2m cube which I admit isn't all that much. 
Your calculations are way off!

400 (metric) tons = 400 cubic meters of water. (or 14,800 cubic feet)
That is a 7.4 x 7.4 x 7.4 m cube.

So that is 50 times the volume of your 2x2x2 m cube.
....

As I said, I'm not so sure my sources were the greatest and if I did a calculation backwards that would screw things up royally.  I think I started with my 400 tons of water and had that converted into gallons (US system, metric certainly should be easier) and then tried to get the conversion of gallons to cubic feet.

Guess I should have applied the "smell test" and realized a 2m cube couldn't be right.  Our skid loader will lift about a ton with the forks and it while the chemical shuttles (pallet sized containers for liquids) probably aren't 2m x 2m x 1.5m the 2x2x2 isn't much bigger and would weigh so much more.

While the "math guess" could be way off that's why I also included a "number of semi-trailers" guess which would cover a lot more area/volume.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

Dessertblade

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 06:59:56 pm »
The Nebulon is, at least, 300m of length. The Marauder is about half of that and has the same more or less. As I said, I think that the 400 ton of cargo is a reasonable measure for a huge SF. In fact, the cargo measures doesnt tell us anything about volume, but I think that at full capacity it doesn't allow to full the cargo bays to the roof, is a simplification combining size and weight. In fact, we have the Jedi Counseling 115 that say this:

Spoiler (hover to show)

So only 100 tons of the space in cargo bays are destined exclusively to the Huge Starfighter, the rest is void space.

MERC_1

  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • ******
  • Posts: 1726
  • Keeper of the sacred blade
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2019, 05:49:15 pm »
The Nebulon-B is supposed to hold a squadron of fighters.  Go look up its size compared to the Falcon and tell me how that makes sense.  So even canon sources don't make sense.
Only a squadron?  Here I thought it was TWO squadrons or 24 fighters!

It's another great example of "canon" sources that may be completely unrealistic (assuming most basic physics still hold) and certainly not all that well balanced for game play.
I think that TWO squadrons may be pushing things unless those are TIE-fighters we are talking about. But if we compare the Nebulon-B with a modern carrier we see that they are about the same size as both are around 300 m long. A carrier takes around 30 to 80 aircraft, so a similar sized space-carrier should be able to carry at least a fraction of that. Looking at a dedicated carrier, the 340 m long Quasar Fire-class bulk cruiser could carry 48 starfighters or FOUR squadrons, and that was not the intended use for that ship to begin with anyway. So, in light of that I don't think that one squadron is out of the question on a ship that size. But I expect that it is the "several shuttles" that is the biggest issue? Anyway, those could be carried externally like the Falcon, or be of smaller size than we expect.

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Hangar bays
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2019, 07:56:34 pm »
"Shuttles" are a huge issue when it comes to describing what a ship carries.  I mean what's a "shuttle" but nothing more than a taxi that could take someone from one place to another.  I know I've written up HUGE ships that would be perfectly fine for that purpose in many cases although they may not carry legions in a single trip.  Of course most hear "shuttle" and then start thinking "Lambda" or some other Colossal ship that really doesn't need some kind of carrier and which of course would give a codex ship a LOT of additional space if that isn't carried.

As for comparing the Nebulon-B to an Earth based Aircraft carrier we need to keep in mind that the Neb-B also seems to fight pretty well on its own.  I'm not entirely sure how well even a Ford class would do without the protection of other ships granted it may have the power needed to add energy weapons should they become available.  A Bulk Cruiser may not have been initially designed as a carrier but if it's designed with "big open spaces" to haul cargo then it may not be a big adjustment making it so it can haul fighters instead; while they'd need some refitting and probably a reinforced launch/landing zone I suspect some real world cargo ships could make use a carriers for VTOL and helios.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.