Author Topic: Funnel System (Starship tech)  (Read 238 times)

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Funnel System (Starship tech)
« on: March 26, 2015, 11:03:38 pm »
I was looking into doing some cross tech when it came into mind that why wouldn't this have appeared in some way shape or form. I am not talking about the mobile suit but the weapons on it. The funnels are an interesting concept in terms of weapon systems. I have a general concept in mind at making it a weapon system but it would be on a Bomber or Gunship then larger but I just need some brainstorming on helping get this system off the ground.



Concepts:

Can be placed on a Bomber/Gunship and larger
Requires a dedicated Operator
Limited Range from Mothership
Can be interrupted against a Jamming Array vs Sys Operator Rolls
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 11:06:43 pm by WestAG »
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Malancthon

  • Jedi Council Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 12:06:54 am »
Depends on how faithful you want to be to the original concept.

Developed as a Newtype weapon (Newtypes being a Human who has evolved to living in space and has higher or different brain functions than normal people, often portrayed as psychic powers such as heightened awareness, increased reaction times, precognition, and telepathy), the Bit system was introduced in the original Gundam series in the Mobile Armor prototype Elmeth (mobile armors are usually giant robots that don't use a humanoid design, while mobile suits usually have a humanoid design; the Elmeth looks sort of like a space fighter). The Elmeth and later robots incorporated a Psychic Communicator (Psycommu system) that allows the robot to read the pilot's mental energies to remotely control the bits and later funnels for an "All-Range Attack", which basically means it can fully use the 3D combat space to attack in multiple angles while the pilot usually stays away from the danger. In the original Gundam universe, the robots utilize a discovered element called Minovsky Particles that makes the technology for robots small enough yet powerful enough to be viable, but Minovsky particles also disrupt radar systems, making long range require manually targeting as well as melee combat with giant robot sized beam sabers a viable combat stratagem, so having a system that can utilize remote control and fully use space as a true 3D combat is pretty powerful.

In Gundam SEED, an alternate universe for Gundam, there are no Minovsky particles. Long range weapons that would be developed into the Dragoon system are practically impossible for normal people to use, and even genetically enhanced humans (known as Coordinators in this universe) find it incredibly difficult to use, as one has to be able to calculate multiple positions and having a hyper-awareness to calculate the main unit, the target(s), and weapon units while moving at high speeds. The main person who is able to do that is a side character that is eventually said to be a Newtype despite the SEED universe to having Newtypes in general. Eventually a computer program is developed that allows non-newtypes to use the system. Another alternate universe, Gundam 00, also has a similar system, called the Bit Control System, which again usually requires an advanced human (an Innovade or Innovator) who has enough mental strength and speed to control multiple systems at once.

Okay, history gobbely gook out of the way. In basic game terms, the pilot/gunner should be able to make ranged attacks from a square other than the occupied by the vehicle. If we're to keep the "special" character fluff of the Gundam verse intact, that'll probably require a Force Sensitive. The Force Pilot talent would probably be a useful requirement, too. Maybe something like a Force Power or a Starship Maneuver that requires a piloting skill check.

All-Ranged System Attack
The results of Pilot skill check determines the effect of the action.

DC 25: You are able to make a single extra attack from a remote weapon system. This attack originates from one square of your choice, and does not have to the same square you are occupying.
DC 30: Same as DC 25, except you can make two such attacks.
DC 35: Same as DC 25, except you can make three such attacks.
Special: If you are able to use your Use the Force check modifier instead of your Pilot check modifier for making Pilot checks, you gain a +5 equipment bonus to your check.
You can spend a Force Point to double the number of extra attacks you can make.

And then determine the type of weapon it is, the effective range, any payload restrictions (smaller bits and funnels do not have a reactor, so require docking back with the main unit to recharge after a few shots or minutes of active use; some units do not have a recharge system).

This probably isn't the only way to replicate the Bits and Funnels, so feel free to come up with an alternate idea.
Winner of Ultimate Dream Build #4: New Jedi Order
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #14: Freedom Fighters of the Rebellion
Mal's Creations

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 12:22:11 am »
Depends on how faithful you want to be to the original concept.

Developed as a Newtype weapon (Newtypes being a Human who has evolved to living in space and has higher or different brain functions than normal people, often portrayed as psychic powers such as heightened awareness, increased reaction times, precognition, and telepathy), the Bit system was introduced in the original Gundam series in the Mobile Armor prototype Elmeth (mobile armors are usually giant robots that don't use a humanoid design, while mobile suits usually have a humanoid design; the Elmeth looks sort of like a space fighter). The Elmeth and later robots incorporated a Psychic Communicator (Psycommu system) that allows the robot to read the pilot's mental energies to remotely control the bits and later funnels for an "All-Range Attack", which basically means it can fully use the 3D combat space to attack in multiple angles while the pilot usually stays away from the danger. In the original Gundam universe, the robots utilize a discovered element called Minovsky Particles that makes the technology for robots small enough yet powerful enough to be viable, but Minovsky particles also disrupt radar systems, making long range require manually targeting as well as melee combat with giant robot sized beam sabers a viable combat stratagem, so having a system that can utilize remote control and fully use space as a true 3D combat is pretty powerful.

In Gundam SEED, an alternate universe for Gundam, there are no Minovsky particles. Long range weapons that would be developed into the Dragoon system are practically impossible for normal people to use, and even genetically enhanced humans (known as Coordinators in this universe) find it incredibly difficult to use, as one has to be able to calculate multiple positions and having a hyper-awareness to calculate the main unit, the target(s), and weapon units while moving at high speeds. The main person who is able to do that is a side character that is eventually said to be a Newtype despite the SEED universe to having Newtypes in general. Eventually a computer program is developed that allows non-newtypes to use the system. Another alternate universe, Gundam 00, also has a similar system, called the Bit Control System, which again usually requires an advanced human (an Innovade or Innovator) who has enough mental strength and speed to control multiple systems at once.

Okay, history gobbely gook out of the way. In basic game terms, the pilot/gunner should be able to make ranged attacks from a square other than the occupied by the vehicle. If we're to keep the "special" character fluff of the Gundam verse intact, that'll probably require a Force Sensitive. The Force Pilot talent would probably be a useful requirement, too. Maybe something like a Force Power or a Starship Maneuver that requires a piloting skill check.

All-Ranged System Attack
The results of Pilot skill check determines the effect of the action.

DC 25: You are able to make a single extra attack from a remote weapon system. This attack originates from one square of your choice, and does not have to the same square you are occupying.
DC 30: Same as DC 25, except you can make two such attacks.
DC 35: Same as DC 25, except you can make three such attacks.
Special: If you are able to use your Use the Force check modifier instead of your Pilot check modifier for making Pilot checks, you gain a +5 equipment bonus to your check.
You can spend a Force Point to double the number of extra attacks you can make.

And then determine the type of weapon it is, the effective range, any payload restrictions (smaller bits and funnels do not have a reactor, so require docking back with the main unit to recharge after a few shots or minutes of active use; some units do not have a recharge system).

This probably isn't the only way to replicate the Bits and Funnels, so feel free to come up with an alternate idea.

Another Gundam Pilot Woot!!! Zeon or ESF? seed can go burn in hell

I like your idea when it comes to the idea of using force sensitives when using this. And checks you have in place are a great start, as noted in Gundam 00 it could be controlled by a Haro, so I don't see how an astromech could not perform such a similar feat. (Oh great I am making droid characters even more powerful) However grounding it more so in the physical reality of the Star Wars Universe. Think of it as a drone (large or smaller) that is operated by a gunner/system operator, in very few cases in the star wars universe I would see the pilot being able to control a bit system in the middle of a dogfight, thinking an ace pilot would be able to pull that off. Hence why it would better to put on a bomber or gunship (an actual person manning the controls). The system that you came up with would work great with Ace Pilots/ Bombers/ Gunship crews. But I would put more under a Use Computer because it is the player giving orders to the bit system and they execute the desired order.

As far as emplacement points go I was thinking around 2EP; 1 For the system itself and 1 for the chosen bit (Laser, Ion, Blaster, Missile, etc) what do you think?
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms

StevenO

  • Global Moderator
  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
  • Dark or Light? Why choose when neither is right?
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 12:33:31 am »
It kind of looks to me like a cross between a missile system and a laser system.  You could fire it at an enemy and have it 'lock' on.  I'm not sure on the specifics because I'm not sure what you want from it and how lethal is it supposed to be.
Over 14,500 post on the WotC board before they closed the SAGA board.

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 12:40:06 am »
It depends on the profile, a bit system functions better against ships of same size or en masse against a larger opponent/ship hence why i suggested using it a large size category. But it could also function as additional fire support operation within a certain number of rounds around its mothership.
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms

Malancthon

  • Jedi Council Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 12:50:38 am »
Another Gundam Pilot Woot!!! Zeon or ESF? seed can go burn in hell

Spoiler (hover to show)


I like your idea when it comes to the idea of using force sensitives when using this. And checks you have in place are a great start, as noted in Gundam 00 it could be controlled by a Haro, so I don't see how an astromech could not perform such a similar feat. (Oh great I am making droid characters even more powerful) However grounding it more so in the physical reality of the Star Wars Universe. Think of it as a drone (large or smaller) that is operated by a gunner/system operator, in very few cases in the star wars universe I would see the pilot being able to control a bit system in the middle of a dogfight, thinking an ace pilot would be able to pull that off. Hence why it would better to put on a bomber or gunship (an actual person manning the controls). The system that you came up with would work great with Ace Pilots/ Bombers/ Gunship crews. But I would put more under a Use Computer because it is the player giving orders to the bit system and they execute the desired order.

As far as emplacement points go I was thinking around 2EP; 1 For the system itself and 1 for the chosen bit (Laser, Ion, Blaster, Missile, etc) what do you think?

I like the idea of Astromechs that could possibly do the check.

In most cases the Bits and Funnels are just a remote cannon that the pilot can set up to attack from different spaces than the occupied space.

Alternatively, in Super Robot Wars, a grid-based tactical RPG video game series (like Final Fantasy Tactics or Fire Emblem with giant robot anime), those weapons are represented as merely having a greater range than most weapons with a higher probability to hit and often as well an area attack of being able to hit multiple squares at once.

I'm not terribly familiar with Saga edition starship design (the line of dungeon ships were My first foray into that), so I wouldn't be able to say whether two EP is correct, but it does sound good.
Winner of Ultimate Dream Build #4: New Jedi Order
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #14: Freedom Fighters of the Rebellion
Mal's Creations

MERC_1

  • Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
  • ******
  • Posts: 1726
  • Keeper of the sacred blade
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 07:14:00 pm »
To me that looks like battry fire. So in SAGA you could have a bunch of (one use) missiles that has a number of shots, that in effect works like a blaster battery with as many gunners as you fire missiles. Maybe you could use them for proximity spread as well, to cover one ore more squares?

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 11:44:29 pm »
For it to be under battery fire they would need to interlock and perform a larger beam if a bit system was to be considered a battery. In the link below would show how a bit system would act as a battery but it would require a number larger than we would be able to put on the starship frame without it being a detriment to starship maneuverability.  With basic DC rolls added from Mal (Thank You by the way) we can have them run on a time limit/turn limit before they would have to return to the carrier to recharge. While the fuel to fly would negeligble in terms of combat its the power cells for the weapon itself that would be the deciding factor.

So the concept would be this:

All-Ranged System Attack
The results of UC skill check determines the effect of the action.

DC 25: You are able to make a single extra attack from a remote weapon system. This attack originates from one square of your choice, and does not have to the same square you are occupying.
DC 30: Same as DC 25, except you can make two such attacks.
DC 35: Same as DC 25, except you can make three such attacks.
Special: If you are able to use your Use the Force check modifier instead of your UC check modifier for making UC checks, you gain a +5 equipment bonus to your check.
You can spend a Force Point to double the number of extra attacks you can make.

Turns on its own: 7 to 11
Recharge timer: 3 to 5 turns

Turn 1:
A bomber/gunship is about to engage a squad of Tie fighters, at the start of the encounter they would roll for initiative. If the bomber manages to go first the crew would recognize that they are outnumbered but would have between 2-4 bits (Std Laser cannons-light, computer system is crew[skilled] to determining atk bonus.). The System Operator/Gunner would make a use computer check to turn on the system (std action, DC15) the bits would then detach from the bomber and would begin operation. Insert the second action from the system operator/gunner with (all range attack system). Meanwhile the pilot is dogfighting in order to not get shot down as quickly.

It is now the tie pilots turn they are engaging the bomber the pilot is still performing evasive maneuvers while fighting back.

Turn 2
Bomber/Gunship turn, the system op makes their roll as their atk using the bit control system. He succeeds in the check and is able to use the system. While the Pilot manages to shoot down one.

Tie Fighter's turn, they lost one of their wingmen to ARSA, it immediately catches the attention of the pilots if they managed to make a perception that notice it. It appears to them as a large target (penalities are taken into account) and try to destroy (This comes to point where I have to make stats with bits themselves). The enemy is now split trying to take out the bits and the bomber, giving the pilots breathing room.

Turn 3
The bomber is now free to engage the tie it has been dogfighting and finally manages to place a bead on the tie and makes the shot damaging it. The system operator makes his roll and manages to score a crit and is able to fire all of its bits crippling the fighters.

The tie fighter's in pursuit of the bits manage to get one of them severely damaging it and the tie fighter in a dogfight tries to break pursuit and does it.

Turn 4
The bomber crew focus the bits and the their cannons to destroy the tie fighter the broke the dogfight. They are successful in destroying.

The tie fighters are giving up and engaging the bomber. The Bomber takes damage its taking the hits and shields nearly collapse as a result.

Turn 5
Torn between survival and taking out the last two fighters. The system operator is getting the bits and fires and destroys one. It is now up to pilot to dogfight and try to survive

The last tie pilot manages to put a bead and fires. The bomber is taking a hits and it is close to being destroyed.

Turn 6
Warning lights are blaring throughout the bomber. The system operator notices that the bit control system is almost out of power. The operator risks it all making one last computer use check, spending a force point to make sure that they can make the attack. It succeeds and manages to destroy the last fighter. The ship recalls the remaining bits and limps away from the combat zone.

I would actually like to test the system on roll 20 so we can prove the system viable.

Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Results of the Funnel Tests #1
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2015, 11:16:10 pm »
First of all I like to thank the people involved in developing the stats for the All Range System Attack. We performed an initial tests with just base stats for a custom bomber and put it against 4 of the most advance fighters that empire can put up in SAGA, the Tie Defender, through out a series of tests we pitted the bomber with the ARSA solo against the Tie's and made it be base stats for rolls (Advance, Prototype, expert crew).

The initial tests were 4 vs 1 and the results were the following:

Test 1:
Bomber got 2 kills (1 from ARSA) and one severly damaged

Test 2:
Bomber 1 kill and 1 tie lost to friendly fire

Test 3:
Bomber scores 2 kills (2 from ARSA) and then lost with a kamikaze attack from the a TIE (Controller Error)

Test 4:
Bomber scores 3 kills (2 from ARSA) and then destruction

What these tests prove other wise is that ARSA is a legitimate system but functions more so of a support platform when in a dogfight, allowing it fight multiple opponents at once. Though for the system to be at its fullest it will need an Ace Pilot and a good computer operator. I need to conduct more tests on the system to be sure. The ARSA kills were from lucky rolls that overwhelmed the fighters. For the most part the rolls need to be adjusted in order to make sure heroes could effectively use the system. I will be lowering the DC by 1 so actual players can use it.

All-Ranged System Attack (Revision 1)
The results of UC skill check determines the effect of the action. To activate the system requires a swift action of Computer Use of a DC 15 to activate and detach bits. While attached to mothership it reduces the Reflex defense of the fighter by 1

DC 24: You are able to make a single extra attack from a remote weapon system. This attack originates from one square of your choice, and does not have to the same square you are occupying.
DC 29: Same as DC 22, except you can make two such attacks.
DC 34: Same as DC 22, except you can make three such attacks.
Special: If you are able to use your Use the Force check modifier instead of your UC check modifier for making UC checks, you gain a +5 equipment bonus to your check.
You can spend a Force Point to double the number of extra attacks you can make.

Turns on its own: 8 Rounds
Recharge timer: 3 Rounds

I will be conducting another series of tests and would like a volunteer for the next round from the site and go over it on roll20 website. You will be given 4 Elite Pilots from Threats of the Galaxy book. I will be using a pilot of the same caliber and test the system from there. Then using a jedi operator for another round of tests.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 11:29:08 pm by WestAG »
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms

Malancthon

  • Jedi Council Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 11:20:16 pm »
Did the test characters who made the rolls for the ARSA have Skill Focus in their respective skills (Pilot or Use Computer, I guess)? I'd contest that the system is supposed to be tough to use, so even for heroes it shouldn't be an easy system. Unless they have the Force Pilot and Skill Focus.
Winner of Ultimate Dream Build #4: New Jedi Order
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #14: Freedom Fighters of the Rebellion
Mal's Creations

WestAG

  • Padawan
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Funnel System (Starship tech)
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 11:28:41 pm »
Nope they didn't it was using base computer rolls for the ship itself, basically drones, but if you are willing to test system with me that would be more than appreciated, with standard 24 DC base.
Winner of Ultimate Dream Builds #18: Lightsaber Forms