Author Topic: Force Sight  (Read 630 times)

Palmetto Swamp Fox

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2017, 12:47:58 pm »
Hey thanks for joking buddy. Everyone Mew Mew is one of my players.

mudtop

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 01:30:49 pm »
To answer Mew Mew/Sum up the thread,
In the rules being blind has a penalty. Whoever is blind gets that penalty period. Now if a character is built properly they can ignore those penalties. The Sense Surroundings application of the skill Use the Force allows you to ignore the effects of cover/concealment at a DC 15 check and total cover at a DC 20 check. Now to do that takes a swift action, while Improved Sense Surroundings removes the need for said action.
So what the question basically boils down to is this, "Does SS/ISS effectively remove blindness from a Jedi and allow them to act normally." I just looked over the rules and it seems to me the answer is partly.
To me the chain of events is:
1. Jedi is blinded by some effect.
2. Jedi immediately gets penalty for being blind, including giving everything total concealment form him. Total concealment effectively removes the targets form the Jedi's line of sight.   
3. If Jedi has ISS he can do this as a free action if he doesn't he needs to wait till his turn.
   3a. assuming ISS, Jedi makes a UtF check to sense surroundings as a free action (so it can be done at anytime) to ignore the effects of concealment.
   3b. if no ISS, then uses a swift action to do this on his turn.
4. If the check is successful the Jedi ignores the total concealment caused by being blind. Targets lose concealment and re-enter the Jedi's line of sight.
5. The Notice Targets use of the perception skills allows you to make a perception check to notice targets the just entered your line of sight as a free action. So the Jedi gets to make a perception check against each target revealed by ignoring concealment. Since this is a free action it happens the moment concealment is lost. (at least there is no good reason for the character to wait to do this). 

This could allow the Jedi to be aware of the targets and thus fight/defend against them normally. But this is also where things get a bit rule lawyery. Technically this only deals with the concealment aspect of the blindness penalty, leaving things such as the movement and defense penalties. However, i would say that the reason the you lose Dex to Ref is because you are effectively flat-footed while blind because you are unaware of targets, but SS allows you to become aware of those targets thus removing the flat-footed-ness and giving you back your Dex to Ref. Why would you move slower except that you are unsure of your footing/surroundings, well if you have "sensed your surroundings" should your movement be impaired? Its not like your legs where blinded after all.

TL:DR. Because the way the rules work Jedi will be effected by blindness but have a realitivly easy way to deal with most of its effects. Most people think that Jedi should be able to ignore blindness for all the examples mentioned below, and so will allow a Jedi to ignore blindness in it entirety with SS, especially if you invested a Force Technique to get ISS, though is isn't technically allowed by the rules.
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StevenO

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 10:26:42 pm »
I don't see Obi-Wan teaching Luke to "fight while blinded" but rather uses that method to teach the use of Sense Surroundings in a way that the student it very likely to remember.  Besides, what would it be that makes a Jedi "immune" to being blinded/force to fight while blinded?  Whatever you choose is going to apply to every Force Sensitive character regardless of whether or not they are actually "Jedi."

Now you may find it hard to believe but it's pretty amazing that using a lightsaber doesn't cause attack penalties due to visibility.  Now I don't know how good of lightsaber replicas you may get to play around with but I can say from experience that in lower light holding a lightsaber in front of you is often going to blind you.  Just think about it; you'd be looking through a bright light source which doesn't always do much for seeing what is beyond.
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fairytalejedi

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 09:14:01 am »
Training is one thing, but doing it in actual combat is another. In my opinion, that extra level of stress in live combat justifies needing a sense surroundings roll (and a swift action unless you've truly mastered it with ISS).
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Palmetto Swamp Fox

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2017, 10:26:11 am »
Steve and Fairytale. This is where I have to take issue. Too many times we (as gamers) try to add stuff from a real world conjecture into games. A lightsaber blinding you is not a consideration in the real world physics of Star Wars. Same with the stress of combat that Fairytale presented. Two of my players hypothetized that Jedi can not defelect laser because it is a speed of light bolt. I had to point out that in Star Wars the bolts aren’t close to light speed. And that they were over thinking it. It’s jusy a game and Space Opera to boot. Not hard sci-fi

StevenO

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 01:50:26 pm »
While we may be making points regarding some real life issue we are also supporting what is written in the game and the balance that it helps to represent.
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fairytalejedi

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2017, 09:07:03 pm »
I would make two counterarguments.

First, there's the example of Kanan, who clearly struggles to adjust after he first loses his sight. It takes a while before he fully adjusts. In game terms, perhaps only after he leveled up and took the ISS technique.

Second, in 15+ years of Star Wars gaming, one thing I've learned is that the game is better when you don't have "do anything" Jedi mary sues. They're common in the source material, but they're bad for the game - boring to play, and can make other PCs redundant. In the case of Force sight, if the Jedi PC gets "negate blindness" for free, non-Jedi from species with low-light vision or darkvision now have one of their special traits overshadowed. It's like being in a game with Anakin who can use Force powers and is a great lightsaber duelist and is a better pilot than the party's dedicated pilot and a better mechanic than the party's dedicated mechanic, yadda yadda yadda. At least if a Force user has to reach 9th level and spend a Force technique on ISS, it represents an expenditure of resources for that PC, it's not something that the PC gets for free on top of everything else.
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mudtop

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2017, 05:11:09 pm »
in lower light holding a lightsaber in front of you is often going to blind you.  Just think about it; you'd be looking through a bright light source which doesn't always do much for seeing what is beyond.

And that is why they added the Durindfire crystal to the game. Makes the blade act as a fusion lantern and turns it silver which is awesome.
In truth what StevenO said is true but in star wars they clearly show many times light sabers acting like lanterns/light sources to help the Jedi see.
I am White/Blue.
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At best, I am organized and law-abiding. At worst, I am bureaucratic and totalitarian.

StevenO

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2017, 06:02:28 pm »
in lower light holding a lightsaber in front of you is often going to blind you.  Just think about it; you'd be looking through a bright light source which doesn't always do much for seeing what is beyond.

And that is why they added the Durindfire crystal to the game. Makes the blade act as a fusion lantern and turns it silver which is awesome.
In truth what StevenO said is true but in star wars they clearly show many times light sabers acting like lanterns/light sources to help the Jedi see.

Hold the lightsaber over your head and it "shines" well enough in a small area for you to see.  Hold in a middle guard position right in front of your face it still lights up a small area but all you see is the bright glow of the lightsaber.  There should be little question that they make light but where that light is shining can greatly affect your vision.  Using SAGA's light sources I'll guess that most lightsabers should fall between a candle (1 square radius) and torch (3 square radius) when it comes to light output; shadowy illumination goes twice as far.

When it comes to lightsabers in the dark I certainly prefer red or "darker" colors.  My Kyberlight saber is often set with the blacklight blade and if not the deep red.  The whites, green, and other bright colors only get used if I'm trying to use it for illumination.
 
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timcrall

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 03:48:37 pm »
So is it the consensus here that the UTF Sense Surroundings "ignore the effects of cover and concealment when making Perception checks to ignore the effects of cover and concealment *when making Perception checks* to detect or observe targets" allows you to ignore cover/concealment for things other than making perception checks?  Like, for making attack rolls?

That's the impression of one of my fellow players - and I strongly agree that Jedi *should* have some kind of Blindfighting capability based on source material - but the rules in that sentence seem extremely specific about the penalty being ignored for Perception checks only.

Also - does this use of the Skill grant me X-ray vision, as it seems to?  Can I see what's on the other side of a wall or inside a closed box?

Allana Djo

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Re: Force Sight
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2018, 02:20:10 pm »
I know this thread is old, but I'm new here and I wanted to put in my two cents.  The Miraluka Force Sight ability allows them to "read and write as a sighted person".  While I would agree that the ISS Technique would probably negate all the blindness issues, I'm not sure I would agree that it would allow them to read and write like the Miraluka can (after all, as a species they have developed this ability over a long time), nor would I agree that it would allow them to, for instance, operate computers whose screens they will not be able to "see".  I suppose it would be a GM call, like many things.