Author Topic: Droid Rules (Read 313 times)

MERC_1 · « **on:** February 16, 2019, 04:44:54 pm »

As we already have a thread on that Droids are unbalanced, I thought we could have a separate thread to iron out how droids are actually supposed to work. So, please keep you berating of potential abuse to a minimum in this thread. I’m not trying to do so, I’m trying to find out HOW it is supposed to work.

If you choose option 2, playing a standard droid model, this is an excerpt from the rules for that:

Quote from: page 187 of SECR.

The final cost of your droid, including any necessary adjustments for processor or adding a level in a heroic class, cannot exceed 5,000 credits. You may add accessories or replace systems as long as your see fit as long as your final cost don't exceed this limit.

Now my problem with this is that many of the droids that are allowed to be played as droid heroes actually cost more than 5,000 credits to begin with. This should actually exclude them from the droids that are allowed to be played as heroes! I'm starting to wonder, should the cost of the droid should even be included in those 5,000 credits?

Also, when replacing a system in a droid during the building of a PC, how does that work? Do I get to deduct the cost of the old system or sell it for half the value as other equipment to help pay for the new system? (I’m still talking about custom and standard droids according to SECR here, not SGtD here.)

Other droids that explicitly can be played as droid heroes have to many levels to start with! One obvious offender it the B2 super battle droid that have 6 non-heroic levels. As you are not allowed to start with more than 3 non-heroic levels according to the rules, there is an obvious contradiction! I would not want to play a 6th level nonheroic anyway, as I would miss out on so many heroic levels!
How do we resolve those issues? I know that choosing a different way to build my droid may be a better option, but I actually like grabbing a readymade droid model and see what I can do with it.

According to the FAQ:
Q190: Do the system components a droid begins play with count against its carrying capacity?
A: Stock models of droids are always assumed to be able to carry their stock equipment
unencumbered. If you play a droid, the systems and accessories you buy with your base 1,000
credits are considered to be covered under this clause. Any other equipment encumbers the droid
as normal, including after-market modifications.
Let’s say that a droid starts out with a Durasteel Shell weighing 8 kg. After many adventures and leveling up a few times, the droid would like to upgrade this to Durasteel Battle Armor also weighing 8 kg. Would this new armor suddenly count against his encumbrance? If so, players would likely sell their propulsion system just to upgrade their armor during character construction! They would likely install the cheapest propulsion available. Doing so WOULD be an exploit to keep down encumbrance, but an understandable one. (This would be especially true if they are starting out at a higher level than normal, as they probably could buy their propulsion system back before the game even starts. But starting at a higher level would be a house rule anyway.)

I'll start with these questions for now and add more later on.

FakDendor · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2019, 05:27:18 pm »

I would say that starting in some of the stock chassis gives you extra NH levels as a freebie because the stats are awful! The B2 super battle droid is basically a PB14 (even lower if you consider Cha 7). While not reaching heroic level 20 is a bit of a downer, getting a BAB of +4 at the "start" of the game is pretty good.

There isn't really an "equation" though, it might be nice to have a table or something saying "your PB decreases with each extra NH level you start with."

StevenO · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm »

I'll start with the big question that is the line "can be played a droid heroes" or similar such things. My take on that line is that what it means is "this droid would be an appropriate size and shape to be used as hero. It also does not possess equipment or special abilities that put it beyond what a meat bag may have keeping from breaking the game that way. Now while it could be appropriate for use as a hero it still may be too powerful to BEGIN PLAY as this type of droid." Now if a game is starting with higher level PCs then perhaps some of those droid could be played as presented but you shouldn't see them at 1st level.

Now when it comes to PC type droids I just completely ignore letting someone play a Stock Droid (option 2) in almost all cases. I figure that you generally should be able to do a custom droid and have the appearance of whatever stock droid it is you are emulating; this is pretty much what SGtD tells you to do as well.

IF YOU DO start play with a stock droid that has Non-heroic levels my take is you're pretty much screwing yourself over. Those level in NH are actual LEVELS and while an NPC may not count all of them when determining CL as a player you do need to count all of them to determine how much XP you need to level and all the mess that goes along with it. As a house rule I may let players buy down their heroic level and replace most of them with heroic levels over time but I'm still having them keep at least 1 to show where they came from.

If you're going to play a STOCK droid I would not let you sell off or exchange parts during character creation. This is part of the punishment/cost of playing such a droid.

When it comes to propulsion systems I believe that the speeds are actually fixed based on size so while the costs may be listen in terms of speed (normally squared) you can't officially reduce the speed of a locomotive system to reduce its cost. Now with house rules I may let alter speed 50% either way but that's not RAW. During character creation I would allow a custom droid to modify it's locomotive system or perhaps even change it out (locomotive systems don't seem to have any weight but considering they are what carry the droid it may all be relative) but this option should not be available for stock or Chassis built droids.

I see some mention of a B2 Battle Droid only being PB 14. Are you remembering the -2 DEX that a Remote Processor causes? Add two points back in for that and now you're at 16 points which is about what I'd expect for scores from an NH6.

It's hard to give good answers to this when I don't see, or perhaps understand, the specific question. Droids are a complicated thing.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2019, 07:42:27 pm »

Quote from: FakDendor on February 16, 2019, 05:27:18 pm

The B2 super battle droid is basically a PB14 (even lower if you consider Cha 7).

Counting the stat increase at 4th level and the ability modifiers for being a 4th degree droid you are correct that is PB14. Actually, that considers that Cha was 9 before mods for 4th degree.

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

I see some mention of a B2 Battle Droid only being PB 14. Are you remembering the -2 DEX that a Remote Processor causes? Add two points back in for that and now you're at 16 points which is about what I'd expect for scores from an NH6.

Yes, you end up at PB 16 considering the stat increase. Almost the normal for a NH.

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

I'll start with the big question that is the line "can be played a droid heroes" or similar such things. My take on that line is that what it means is "this droid would be an appropriate size and shape to be used as hero. It also does not possess equipment or special abilities that put it beyond what a meat bag may have keeping from breaking the game that way. Now while it could be appropriate for use as a hero it still may be too powerful to BEGIN PLAY as this type of droid." Now if a game is starting with higher level PCs then perhaps some of those droid could be played as presented but you shouldn't see them at 1st level.

While I see your point, I think that the NH-levels and low stats make up for this pretty well. Playing a NH2/Heroic1 droid could be a slight advantage at first level, but the low stats would soon catch up to you. However, I do not think that the B2 super battle droids are suitable for play alongside heroic character. They would be too strong as NH6 at first level as you say, but beyond that they would soon lag behind the others.

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

Now when it comes to PC type droids I just completely ignore letting someone play a Stock Droid (option 2) in almost all cases. I figure that you generally should be able to do a custom droid and have the appearance of whatever stock droid it is you are emulating; this is pretty much what SGtD tells you to do as well.

Yes, I would do so as well in most cases. Using the system to generate a custom droid per SECR or using the rules presented in SGtD to use a Stock Chassis is mostly much better. But there are exceptions! Some droids start out with just one level in a heroic class, these are sometimes pretty good. Others have expensive equipment or special abilities that may make up for low stats to some degree

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

If you're going to play a STOCK droid I would not let you sell off or exchange parts during character creation. This is part of the punishment/cost of playing such a droid.

OK, but I guess I could remove things in play and try to sell them insted?

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

When it comes to propulsion systems I believe that the speeds are actually fixed based on size so while the costs may be listen in terms of speed (normally squared) you can't officially reduce the speed of a locomotive system to reduce its cost. Now with house rules I may let alter speed 50% either way but that's not RAW. During character creation I would allow a custom droid to modify it's locomotive system or perhaps even change it out (locomotive systems don't seem to have any weight but considering they are what carry the droid it may all be relative) but this option should not be available for stock or Chassis built droids.

Yes, I know that you can't drop the speed to get cheaper propulsion. You should get the speed from the table 11-3, page 188 SECR. Most droids could afford to mount a new locomotive system with for example wheels with the sum allocated for modifications, at least if the rip out the old system so they don't need to pay the extra cost for having more than one system. This should be available to all droids from the beginning, If they can afford it with allocated funds or starting credits. This is often the reason they can’t do it, it is too expensive! It is explicitly allowed for stock chassis-built droids in SGtD, "An unwanted system can be swapped for another system within 10% of the unwanted system's cost without spending any credits.", see page 10 of SGtD. So, the chassis built droids are actually the most likely to change propulsion from the begining. But this was not the point I wanted to make...

Quote from: StevenO on February 16, 2019, 06:33:51 pm

It's hard to give good answers to this when I don't see, or perhaps understand, the specific question. Droids are a complicated thing.

I will try to rephrase my questions to make them more clearly, but not tonight...

MERC_1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2019, 04:16:25 am »

Let’s say that a droid starts out with a Durasteel Shell weighing 8 kg, as this is stock equipment it does not encumber the droid. If he droid upgrades this to Durasteel Battle Armor also weighing 8 kg, should this new armor suddenly count against his encumbrance weighing him down? If so, does this make sense? Is this only for balance reasons?

EDIT I think I understand why playing a stock droid is a bad idea, the stats are all over the place! I was looking at the IT-O (torture) droid and those stats looks like PB 33 on a droid that can be played as a stock model. Even I see that this is just wrong, that droid has almost all those points in mental stats as well. It is a second-degree droid, so it would easily be converted to an astromech or similar function with very high stats.

StevenO · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2019, 04:49:38 pm »

Quote from: MERC_1 on February 17, 2019, 04:16:25 am

Let’s say that a droid starts out with a Durasteel Shell weighing 8 kg, as this is stock equipment it does not encumber the droid. If he droid upgrades this to Durasteel Battle Armor also weighing 8 kg, should this new armor suddenly count against his encumbrance weighing him down? If so, does this make sense? Is this only for balance reasons?

In a case like that I'm probably saying the substitution doesn't add to the droid's encumbrance. In some ways I see that as being a near equivalent of cutting of your arm and replacing it with a cybernetic prosthetic in that you're just replacing part of your "body." Now I would NOT let you start out with some extremely heavy piece of equipment that could sneak in under that "included as part of basic chassis so it doesn't count as encumbrance" and then let you take that out and say you've now got that much extra room to use carrying other things that are not a direct replacement to that system.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2019, 06:38:33 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on February 18, 2019, 04:49:38 pm

Now I would NOT let you start out with some extremely heavy piece of equipment that could sneak in under that "included as part of basic chassis so it doesn't count as encumbrance" and then let you take that out and say you've now got that much extra room to use carrying other things that are not a direct replacement to that system.

I think that makes sense, otherwise you would see this situation:
– But I bought this Droid Oil Bath as starting equipment, it should not count against my encumbrance!
GM: Yes, I understand. But you will have to keep it in a stationary location.
– But why?
GM: It weigh 600 kg and is four times bigger than your droid!

But what if the droid goes for the Mandalorian steel shell instead?
That one weigh 9 kg, so one kg more.
I would just add one kg to encumbrance. but YMMV.

Next question:
If a player wants to play a prototype or reprogramed IT-O droid, how should he go about that?
The IT-O is the interrogation droid used on Leia.
It is a small size hovering droid. A medically trained droid but focusing on Persuasion.
I think that letting someone play the stock droid would be crazy, even if WotC thought it should be fine.
There is no way to build a small hovering droid with the custom droid rules, so the only option left is to use a stock chassis.
The version by WotC is a 2nd degree droid, falling in the same category as an astromech. Not a great fit except that they are small sized.
A small Probe Droid Chassis would probably be only way to get the right locomotion system.
The Medical Droid Chassis seems to fit the bill but has the wrong equipment and skills.
Being a persuasive droid, a Protocol Droid Chassis would be the best for skills and attributes.

So, what to do?

MERC_1 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2019, 05:06:50 pm »

Next droid question:
how do you intergrate equipment into a droid?
I'm not talking about droid equipment, but other equipment like a Bioscanner, a Power Generator or a Stealth field generator?
Do you just buy internal storage big enough to accomodate the device?
If so, how do you connect it to the droid?

StevenO · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2019, 05:30:28 pm »

A funny thing about droids, at least "humanoid" shaped ones, is that they can use a wide variety of equipment built for organics just like they were organics. I'll admit it'd seem very strange but you could put a B1 into a set of 'trooper armor which it'd then use like any other organic creature would. I'm thinking this is how the RAW would look at it

Now integrating non-droid equipment into a droid could be more complicated. I suppose that if the droid has an armored chassis you could go with the integrated equipment armor upgrade and go from there. The idea of using a droids "internal storage" to add it has some appeal although I know I'd boost the space requirements a bit (double?) and set a modest DC to get it working.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2019, 06:16:27 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on February 22, 2019, 05:30:28 pm

A funny thing about droids, at least "humanoid" shaped ones, is that they can use a wide variety of equipment built for organics just like they were organics. I'll admit it'd seem very strange but you could put a B1 into a set of 'trooper armor which it'd then use like any other organic creature would. I'm thinking this is how the RAW would look at it

Thanks, I was thinkig about that also. You could for example have a Bounty Hunter that is wearing full body armor actually be a droid. This would be a great way to avoid some of the drawbacks of being a droid.

Quote from: StevenO on February 22, 2019, 05:30:28 pm

Now integrating non-droid equipment into a droid could be more complicated. I suppose that if the droid has an armored chassis you could go with the integrated equipment armor upgrade and go from there. The idea of using a droids "internal storage" to add it has some appeal although I know I'd boost the space requirements a bit (double?) and set a modest DC to get it working.

I have noticed that many types of equipment weigh more for droids. A Sound sponge weigh only 1 kg, but a Silence-bubble generator weigh 20 kg for a medium or small droid. They are pretty much the same thing by the way. So, I could see an argument for doubling the weight.

Another option is to mount anything that is not a sensor into a tool-mount.

I think I found the answer, the Concealed Item Droid Accessory from SGtD page 56 let you do this. But even here I'm unsure about if sensors would work. This let you install a tool or weapon inside the droid so that it is hidden from sight. Most equipment can be seen as tools in this regard. The cost is the cost of the tool + 2 x cost of internal storage compartment.

Still don't know if a droid can wear visors and similar things over their sensors though, or if they can be somehow integrated. I guess "humanoid" shaped droid could wear a visor or similar sensor. It would be a bit more complicated on a R2-unit...

StevenO · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2019, 06:42:48 pm »

Quote from: MERC_1 on February 22, 2019, 06:16:27 pm

...

Still don't know if a droid can wear visors and similar things over their sensors though, or if they can be somehow integrated. I guess "humanoid" shaped droid could wear a visor or similar sensor. It would be a bit more complicated on a R2-unit...

I'm not a big fan of the visors anyway.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2019, 11:17:51 am »

Quote from: StevenO on February 22, 2019, 06:42:48 pm

I'm not a big fan of the visors anyway.

My thoughts were that integrated equipment would not need a separate power source in many cases.

Integrated weapons still need to be put into a tool-mount with double the cost if hidden, but I don't think that they would need a power pack. But I guess that a blaster still needs an occasional refill with tibana-gas. Any projectile weapon would need an internal magazine. But this is sometimes bigger than on the typical weapon of that type. That this is the case can be inferred from the description of installing internal storage for extra ammo on some droids in SGtD. It should logically be available to other droids of similar size, as long as it can install more storage.

StevenO · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2019, 03:19:48 pm »

Going with the integrated equipment in armor is seems that everything still needs its own power source. There may be a "generator" that counts as some level for everything else but that's extra.

When it came to droid I seem to recall something about a integrated weapon depleting their internal energy stores so they'd have to recharge more often than the 100 hours I believe is standard.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2019, 05:21:29 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on February 23, 2019, 03:19:48 pm

Going with the integrated equipment in armor is seems that everything still needs its own power source. There may be a "generator" that counts as some level for everything else but that's extra.

Yes, absolutely! I could see a droid with a few pieces of equipment bolted on to the armor plating. Those would still be separate pieces of equipment, so they are not likely to be attached to the droids power supply.

Quote from: StevenO on February 23, 2019, 03:19:48 pm

When it came to droid I seem to recall something about a integrated weapon depleting their internal energy stores so they'd have to recharge more often than the 100 hours I believe is standard.

That makes sense, especially if you are equipped with two Heavy Repeating Blasters they spew out hundreds of shots! If you are using a built in Blaster Pistol or a Blaster Rifle you shouldn't have to worry too much unless you use excessive auto-fire.

I was thinking more about installing a hidden built in Stealth Field Generator and hocking that up so that you don't have to change the Power Pack in the middle of an encounter.

I have another question:
How do you calculate the size of a spherical droid?
They are a lot more compact than a humanoid droid would be.
I was thinking that you could calculate the volume and compare with the weight of organics.
I also looked at some known spherical droids and came up with this:

Size Diameter (m)
Deminutive 0.15
Tiny 0.20 - 0.25
Smal 0.30 - 0.45
Medium 0.50 - 0.85
Large 0.90 - 1.45

I'm not sure of droids smaller than 0.15 m, as I don't have any data to compare with.
Also, the diameter of a large spherical droid is mostly a guess, based on estimates.
I would suspect that a droid that is 3 feet or 0.9 meters wide could get stuck in doors made for medium size beings, thus it should be large size.

Do you know of any large size spherical droid I could compare with?
What do you think?

StevenO · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2019, 05:51:19 pm »

The size of a spherical droid is one of those things where you really need to start wondering about Size in the game as a whole. It many ways it reminds me of the skirmish game where Huge creatures had normal types which could squeeze through the opening that a smaller thing could easily go through but then there were RIGID Huges which couldn't do that and had to have the full 3 squares to maneuver through. Even if it may not go through a door that most "medium" sized creatures would go through a 1m diameter droid would still be a medium sized character at least if that's the measure you are going with.

I can't think of any "large" spherical shaped droids but isn't one of the Separatist Huge Droids essentially a big ball with legs?

Within each size category there's so much variation when it comes to dimensions and with it weight. I mean if you could calculate the actual VOLUME of most organic creatures the mass is likely to be just about what that volume of water would be. With droids you may need to ask "just what is that shell filled with?" because maybe there's a lot of airspace giving light weight polymers freedom to "breathe" while some other droid could theoretically be packed full of some very heavy components making it weigh a lot more that an organic with a similar volume. A B1 Battle Droid may be "medium sized" but depending on what it's actually made out of it seems like it could weigh next to nothing as it's little more than an organic's skeleton. Your question on spherical shaped droids run into all of these questions as well especially if you consider how much more volume they pack for their given surface area.

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Author Topic: Droid Rules (Read 313 times)

MERC_1

Droid Rules

FakDendor

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StevenO

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MERC_1

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MERC_1

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MERC_1

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