Author Topic: Dastardly Strike and Autofire  (Read 329 times)

Soft

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Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« on: April 26, 2015, 07:56:25 am »
Dastardly Strike uses the term: "Successful Attack" instead of "On a Hit".  My questions are
If I autofire and hit the DC 10 and the opponent is flatfooted, what happens?
What happens if I hit his Ref Def?
Is Dastardly Strike single target only?

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StevenO

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2015, 12:05:35 pm »
Even as a single target talent Dastardly Strike is already pretty strong.  I certainly would not let it apply just because you manage to hit REF 10 with an area attack and dealt fractional damage to a target and even if you still exceed the REF of potential targets in the area I wouldn't allow it.
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illslim2

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2015, 12:38:34 pm »
Soft you left out a part of the Talents description, and it might not matter to some when making this decision.

Quote from: core pg 46
Dastardly Strike: Whenever you make a successful attack against an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense, the target moves -1 step along the condition track (see Conditions, page 148).

Nothing about this in the FaQ either which has errata/clarifications in it for the core.

Myself, I would give it to you if you hit the Target's Ref Def or beat it and the target is somehow denied their dex bonus and do at least one point of damage. You spent a Talent for this and it is worded how it is worded so. Plus you have an extra stipulation to get the CT movement plus me wanting you to actually hit a Ref Def not the DC 10. I looked through Ref Def, Attacks, and Autofire for discrepancies on defining successful attacks, Ref Def being hit core pg 145, and Autofire. It does say on autofire
Quote from: core pg 156
Autofire is treated as an area attack (see Area Attack, page 155). You target a 2-square-by-2-square area, make a single attack roll at a -5 penalty, and compare the result to the Reflex Defense of every creature in the area. Creatures you hit take full damage, and creatures you miss take half damage.

So that is why I would say you have to hit the Ref Def for me to consider it a Successful Attack.


There is a whole post on here with a list on Talents/Feats/Powers that let you deny Dex to a target, so need to go into them I would think. And in my games I treat Flat-footed/surprise/denid Dex mod as such.......
House rule
"If unaware of an attack, or if surprised, or not allowed to add your Dex Mod to your Ref Def it is treated like Flat-footed and vice versa. And can be used interchangeable for triggers for Feats, Talents, and Force Powers."

And this would be a little more powerful due to that. I am ok with that, but you the PC's best be ok with it too. Because something like this will get used to against you once in a while too. And you must see the potential for power of this Soft, because you posted it on here to help qualify being able to use it or not. So something like this I would stress to the other PC's playing in the game.
"Do you really want PC1 to have this if it will be used against you every so often? One terribly timed nat 20 from a NPC who gets a good Initiative roll and a couple of other select Feats and Talents stacked onto this too. And the way I make all the PC's start in a small area at the beginning of an encounter? You are looking at 1 to 3 CT movement to maybe everyone in the first round of combat."

I am ok with it because of the above circumstance it will make any encounter very challenging. Easy way to put all the PC's down one or two or even three down on the Condition track and turn it into an edge of the seat fight for their lives. But I bet one or two of my friends and PC's would want to talk it over with the person wanting to do this combo.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:06:42 pm by illslim2 »
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Soft

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2015, 01:14:38 pm »
The GM already said no to it, I was just looking for clarification for future reference.

I was hoping to get a non-RAI answer.  What constitutes a "successful attack"?

MasterArkaine

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2015, 03:25:26 pm »
The GM already said no to it, I was just looking for clarification for future reference.

I was hoping to get a non-RAI answer.  What constitutes a "successful attack"?

Most will tell you meeting or succeeding the targets' actual Reflex defense, not a target Reflex a special type of attacks gives you. For Force attacks, this goes for any Defense score you must hit
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StevenO

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 03:36:25 pm »
For the Hunter's Mark and Debilitating Shot talents a "successful attack" will be one that hits the target's REF Defense and deals as least 1 hitpoint worth of damage.
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Soft

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 04:02:19 pm »
You're confusing me even more now.

Both of those talents (hunter's mark/debilitating shot) say if the attack hits.  They don't mention damage at all.  In a game that calls X to determine Y, having this sort of cross communication is terrible.

Dastardly strike isn't unique in the terminology, many of the martial arts talents call out successful attacks.  The issue with those is you can't make an area attack with them as far as I know.

MarioFanaticXV

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 04:18:03 pm »
For the Hunter's Mark and Debilitating Shot talents a "successful attack" will be one that hits the target's REF Defense and deals as least 1 hitpoint worth of damage.

In Saga, any attack that hits deals at least one point of damage, even if Damage Reduction would otherwise make them immune.

Soft

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 04:43:38 pm »
For the Hunter's Mark and Debilitating Shot talents a "successful attack" will be one that hits the target's REF Defense and deals as least 1 hitpoint worth of damage.

In Saga, any attack that hits deals at least one point of damage, even if Damage Reduction would otherwise make them immune.

It does say that, but I'm not sure that's the reason it says that.  I think it says that because of negative damage.  That said, the DR rules are super vague about it.

Suffice it to say, a shield rating, say from force shield, would still work.  The reason being that you are damaging the shield first, and also because that's what it says.  The SR rules aren't vague.

illslim2

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 06:18:51 pm »
DR has to be vague, I think, because it is subject to what is providing it. If I take Elite Trooper PrC and get some DR it fluffs out to me that I take the damage but I shrug it off. Or if I have armor that provides DR it absorbs the damage. It really comes down to how in detail you want to go and how you view things. Just like a lot of the mechanic/rule issues with Saga.
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StevenO

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 06:20:20 pm »
For the Hunter's Mark and Debilitating Shot talents a "successful attack" will be one that hits the target's REF Defense and deals as least 1 hitpoint worth of damage.

In Saga, any attack that hits deals at least one point of damage, even if Damage Reduction would otherwise make them immune.

No.

Now the damage an attack COULD do will always be at least 1 (like say a knife wielded by someone with STR 2) but any number of effects can counter the attack to result in no damage and ultimately a miss.

Lets say you shoot at a Jedi who has the Force Shield power up and being maintained, has the Damage Reduction talent active, and has the Deflect talent.  Even if you roll a natural 20 against that character there are three thing which could turn that 'critical hit' into an attack that actually is a miss.  First you have the Deflect talent which can just negate the attack if the UtF check is high enough.  After that you have the active SR to reduce any damage rolled which could potentially negate the attack.  If some damage overcomes the SR then it runs into the characters DR 10 and that can potentially negate the rest of the damage and thus the successful attack.

There is no such thing as "negative damage" but there are things that can completely negate damage.

Both of those talents (hunter's mark/debilitating shot) say if the attack hits.  They don't mention damage at all.  In a game that calls X to determine Y, having this sort of cross communication is terrible.
...

Take a look at the errata/2nd printing.  The text should say "if the attack deals damage" instead of just saying something about hitting.
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Soft

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 07:12:27 pm »
For the Hunter's Mark and Debilitating Shot talents a "successful attack" will be one that hits the target's REF Defense and deals as least 1 hitpoint worth of damage.

In Saga, any attack that hits deals at least one point of damage, even if Damage Reduction would otherwise make them immune.

No.

Now the damage an attack COULD do will always be at least 1 (like say a knife wielded by someone with STR 2) but any number of effects can counter the attack to result in no damage and ultimately a miss.

Lets say you shoot at a Jedi who has the Force Shield power up and being maintained, has the Damage Reduction talent active, and has the Deflect talent.  Even if you roll a natural 20 against that character there are three thing which could turn that 'critical hit' into an attack that actually is a miss.  First you have the Deflect talent which can just negate the attack if the UtF check is high enough.  After that you have the active SR to reduce any damage rolled which could potentially negate the attack.  If some damage overcomes the SR then it runs into the characters DR 10 and that can potentially negate the rest of the damage and thus the successful attack.

There is no such thing as "negative damage" but there are things that can completely negate damage.

I am the only one who finds it highly ironic that your example is easier to pull off than my original observation about autofire/dastardly strike, and is vastly overpowered comparatively?  Not to mention all the Jedi in my party have force shield and deflect, and my character happens to be the only non-jedi.

I also appreciate that everybody assumed I was doing this on purpose and not asking a legitimate rules question.  You also assumed very incorrectly that I'm playing a CT killer.

As for the comment on escalation and the GM can do it too: What am I supposed to do now that the GM is using heavy weapons to try to overcome the jedi's defenses?  Does my original observation and interpretation seem more reasonable now?

StevenO

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 07:39:33 pm »
I'll point out that my example required two talents, spending a FP, and because I said maintaining Force Shield it takes a standard action.  It is a Jedi on full defense.  Just cutting things down to Force Shield in the character's suite and having Deflect will leave those two things competing for which one gets to be used as the Reaction to being attacked.  If attacked while flat-footed then neither Reactionary ability should be available.

If you want to be specific Dastardly Strike does say "attack against AN opponent" which is singular.

Why am I getting the feeling there is more to this just beneath the surface.  Maybe you want "five grenades suddenly fall into the group and explode.  Now everyone needs to spend a FP or they're dead despite being 20th level."
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illslim2

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 07:51:28 pm »
I also appreciate that everybody assumed I was doing this on purpose and not asking a legitimate rules question.  You also assumed very incorrectly that I'm playing a CT killer.

Soft, I never assumed you was doing anything other than asking a question. Far as the CT killer, well it would be strange to get the ability to move one or more targets (if this was allowed by your GM with autofire) and not go and get another ability to get an additional CT hit to them. Plus there is always damage overcoming the DT of the targets as an unintended CT movement, but it is 99% of the time happily accepted at every gaming table playing Saga.

As for the comment on escalation and the GM can do it too: What am I supposed to do now that the GM is using heavy weapons to try to overcome the jedi's defenses?  Does my original observation and interpretation seem more reasonable now?

Far as what you as a none Jedi can do and even a Jedi can do is, dip into Scout and take Evasion Talent if you are getting pummeled with area attacks. Look into getting a shield generator to help eat a bit of damage. Dive for Cover Feat could possibly help, not as fun to work with in PbP games but at the table not an issue. There are always things you can do. One simple one is to not bunch up. I used in my example the fact that all the PC's start in this 3square by 3 square starting area. Other than that you can usually move wherever you want, and if the GM is pummeling you with area attacks I highly recommend spreading out.

If I had to guess/assume, you have 3 to 5 players in your group and most of them are Force Users built to min-max specs for combat. Then this has forced the GM to have to ratchet up things to challenge them. And he/she has went the way of hit them in their dump stats and weak spots. And you are caught in the crossfire of an arms race and are the weaker of the party. If this is so you might want to talk to the GM one on one and point out what you feel is happening to you and talk about how to make your gaming experience better somehow.
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illslim2

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Re: Dastardly Strike and Autofire
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 07:55:08 pm »
If you want to be specific Dastardly Strike does say "attack against AN opponent" which is singular.

Good catch. I probably would still allow it if the player wants it bad enough. Due to you compare an autofire attack vs each opponent caught in the attack's area of effect.
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