Author Topic: Cloaking During a Dogfight  (Read 144 times)

Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Cloaking During a Dogfight
« on: January 30, 2015, 07:22:24 pm »
If two fighters are engaged in a dofight (let's say A-wing vs TIE phantom as an example), what happens if the TIE engages its cloaking device?

Is it reasonable to assume that the dogfight goes on regardless, but possibly with a concealment modifier?  Or must the A-wing make a perception check to see the TIE first, and the dogfight proceeds as normal?  Does the dogfight just end?

What do you guys think?  I really could see every way.  When I say dogfight, I am referring to the actual (potentially broken) dogfighting rule from the book.
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StevenO

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 10:07:50 pm »
Although it should be obvious the -5 attack penalty for total concealment will apply to any attacks made against the cloaked ship.

When it comes to those opposed rolls to attack in a dogfight or to disengage they only mention opposed pilot checks which a cloaks is not going to help.  I'm even thinking that cloaking in the middle of a dogfight is not going help those things for a couple reasons.  I'll say the first is that dogfighting is kind of like a starship equivalent to grappling and as long as you've got your hands on someone having them suddenly vanish from sight doesn't mean you can't hang on.  The second thing is that even with a -10 applied to the Stealth check a huge ship's -10, gargantuan ship's -15, or colossal ship's -20 penalty eats up that bonus and Perception checks at dogfight range don't have any penalties even if we aren't using sensors.  IF you can disengage then the cloaked ship's pilot would be able to use Stealth while moving away although all the speed penalties will apply.

Although the stealth checks are very difficult a cloaked ship probably could sneak by a fighter and avoid getting caught in a dogfight in the first place.  I have house ruled that some ships designed for cloaking (as opposed to adapted to cloaking or simply having the cloak added to it) can ignore the size penalty to Stealth against Sensors when the cloak is engaged but that still wouldn't save you from direct observation made without utilizing the sensor's advantages.
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Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 12:55:51 am »
This question came to mind while playing TIE fighter the other night for me.  I was just trying to imagine; if you're close in and that target were to cloak, then juke away, it would be very difficult to stay glued to that guy.  It is hard enough keeping a non-cloaking ship like an A-wing in front of you when your radar bubbles get damaged.

I don't think it is like grappling at all.  If that guy disappears and jukes, he can build significant distance pretty quickly.  Though of course you could pick him back up and run him down again.

Really I think the bigger problem is that with the dogfighting rules as they are, there is no way to escape no matter how massive your speed advantage is.  If you were in an A-wing and were surprised and jumped by a Phantom with a better pilot at the stick (or a more extreme example, a player in a TIE Defender jumps a bad guy with several heroic levels, or all of them, specialized to be a hotshot, flying a B-wing)...you can't run, can't fight back.  You just eventually die.  You can't disengage, even if you should be able to just take a free hit and do some all out movement to try and get away.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 01:03:47 am by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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StevenO

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 01:11:09 am »
I guess two things to consider for dogfighting:
1.  A faster ship could avoid contact that starts the dogfight in the first place.
2.  A smaller, and presumably faster, ship often has a much better modifier for the pilot's skill making it easier to avoid dogfights or act while in a dogfight.

Now if you want to say that being cloaked can give your opponent a -5 penalty to his opposed check when you attempt to disengage I wouldn't stop you although I wouldn't allow it to alter the shooting aspect.  Also pay special note to what I said about Stealth; at dogfighting range you're normally looking at a -5 or -10 stealth penalty even after accounting for the cloak which still means that an average perception roll is likely to defeat stealth allowing the general location of the cloaked ship.
 
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Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 01:31:11 am »
1.  A faster ship could avoid contact that starts the dogfight in the first place.

Not neccessarily.  There are any number of situations that can lead to a slower craft initiating a dogfight.  Relative position to an objective being one such.  Then of course there are situations where a faster craft initiates, then wants to disengage for some reason but can't (perhaps bit off more than he could chew).

It seems odd that Fold Space becomes your only option because you didn't pump DEX and never got around to Skill Focus: Pilot.

Or is there some other way to escape and I am just brain farting or didn't see it?
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StevenO

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 01:23:17 pm »
Killing/disabling the other ship in a dogfight should be a certain way to end it.

IF there was a 100% effective way for anyone to disengage from a dogfight the cost for it would need to be very high.  How high? At the minimum it would be giving anyone you're dogfighting with a free parting shot at you where you should be considered Flat-footed which means no DEX to your ship's REF Defense and no Vehicular Combat roll to negate the attack.  This is going to represent the ship completely forgoing the dogfight for a very negative effect.

You may need to remember that once two ships are in a dogfight the value of speed completely goes away.  in the real world a better dogfighter is more maneuverable than the opponent and that is reflected in how the ship modifies the Pilot ability.  Perhaps speed could be used to escape a dogfight but it should put that ship in a terrible position to the ship it was fighting.

I know this example started with an A-Wing and Phantom mentioned.  Let me just put their numbers down from the official books:

A-Wing:  Huge, DEX 26, +6 to pilot's Pilot checks, speed 6 space
Phantom (RECG): Huge, DEX 26, +6 to Pilot's skill, speed 5 space; becoming Cloaked would have it's concealment bonus cancel out its size penalty.

It actually looks to me like a dogfight between these two ships would be pretty close to a draw meaning it would take the better pilot to win.
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Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 01:41:08 pm »
Killing/disabling the other ship in a dogfight should be a certain way to end it.

IF there was a 100% effective way for anyone to disengage from a dogfight the cost for it would need to be very high.  How high? At the minimum it would be giving anyone you're dogfighting with a free parting shot at you where you should be considered Flat-footed which means no DEX to your ship's REF Defense and no Vehicular Combat roll to negate the attack.  This is going to represent the ship completely forgoing the dogfight for a very negative effect.

You may need to remember that once two ships are in a dogfight the value of speed completely goes away.  in the real world a better dogfighter is more maneuverable than the opponent and that is reflected in how the ship modifies the Pilot ability.  Perhaps speed could be used to escape a dogfight but it should put that ship in a terrible position to the ship it was fighting.

I know this example started with an A-Wing and Phantom mentioned.  Let me just put their numbers down from the official books:

A-Wing:  Huge, DEX 26, +6 to pilot's Pilot checks, speed 6 space
Phantom (RECG): Huge, DEX 26, +6 to Pilot's skill, speed 5 space; becoming Cloaked would have it's concealment bonus cancel out its size penalty.

It actually looks to me like a dogfight between these two ships would be pretty close to a draw meaning it would take the better pilot to win.

Oh I don't think there shouldn't be a penalty for withdawing.  A free opportunity attack was along the lines of what I was thinking, no Vehicular Combat, though I think flat-footed is a little harsh.  I think being flat-footed would be reasonable if the withdrawing ship is of equal or lesser speed than the opponent.  If the withdrawing ship is faster, I think the pilot would be able to pull away while making minor course corrections to throw off the pursuer's aim (No penalty to attack for the pursuer, but target not flat-footed either).

Yes, those two ships are quite evenly matched.  I'm just trying to figure out a way to make dogfights less of all-or-nothing affairs.  Even at a few heroic levels, a character specialized in piloting will wipe the floor with a character that hopped into a starfighter because "there was a space battle and he needed to be there" (as SotG says it).  Even in evenly matched starfighters, the gulf can be huge.  Such a character should have a way (even if costly) to withdraw.
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StevenO

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 02:35:38 pm »
You do realize how poorly build generic crew is don't you?  A "Normal" is a NH 1 character who happens to have the right skills and weapon proficiency.  Skilled is NH3 and Expert is just NH7 with none of them having anything more than the basics proficiencies.  IF your character isn't trained in the Pilot skill then it should probably stay out of the pilot's seat unless very high level and even then avoiding the enemy's aces is probably advised.  Unless you have some pilot skill staying out of a fighter cockpit is generally going to be a good idea although there are still plenty of ways to contribute.  Not having any pilot skill in Star Wars is telling me you're either going to avoid piloting vehicles whenever possible or that you've min/maxed and now you're getting caught in a 'min' you had hoped to avoid.

If a ship is allowed to automatically choose to break off from a dogfight I believe treating it as flat-footed is appropriate.  It is after all turning its back and running because it can't get away any safe way.  Dogfights are "all or nothing" affairs once you get drawn into one because one guy wants to shoot down the other.  Now there is nothing keeping a ship from allowing another to break out of the dogfight assuming that it will be beneficial to it somehow.

If superior speed doesn't allow you to avoid a dogfight then that is because of your mission parameters.  An enemy between you and an objective is supposed to be a problem and maybe you can fly around it but maybe not.  If you fight a long range starfighter battle, which you should be able to maintain with a higher speed, you should generally be able to avoid getting into a dogfight against a single ship.  There aren't a lot of ships that move 5 or more but those that do are designed to dogfight so you shouldn't expect to get away from them easily.  Don't forget that starting a dogfight has a -5 penalty on the pilot check.

Maybe you're looking for general thoughts but maybe you have some specific situations and characters in mind.  If it is the later of these I'm curious what specific situations you are looking at.
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msaffin

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Re: Cloaking During a Dogfight
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 09:40:26 am »
If two fighters are engaged in a dofight (let's say A-wing vs TIE phantom as an example), what happens if the TIE engages its cloaking device?

Is it reasonable to assume that the dogfight goes on regardless, but possibly with a concealment modifier?  Or must the A-wing make a perception check to see the TIE first, and the dogfight proceeds as normal?  Does the dogfight just end?

What do you guys think?  I really could see every way.  When I say dogfight, I am referring to the actual (potentially broken) dogfighting rule from the book.

well, a dogfight implies the 2 fighters are quite near from each other so I would do a perception check with the A-wing pilot as a reaction to the cloak activation to maintain the dogfight (with concealment bonus for the cloaked one...)

in my head a cloaking device would make you undetectable for ship systems but while moving the outlines of the cloaked ship could be seen by the eyes of a pilot near it.
So you could shoot at it with your blasters but not lock a missile on it.