Author Topic: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So  (Read 255 times)

MERC_1

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A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« on: December 13, 2018, 06:02:13 pm »
I find Ripost somewhat lacking, spending a talent for maybe one extra attack per fight. Is it worth it? Improved Ripost is even more lacking in usefulness, it is a one time bonus that may let you avoid one more attack, maybe.

Djem So on the other hand, this will suffer from a FP cost so you may not want to use it in every fight. I still feel that this may be more useful, as it can be used more than once in a combat encounter if need be.

Have anyone used these talents and what did you think of them?

I kind of like them both, but they are a bit high prised, one way or the other.

Now Counterpunch, that is a interesting talent. Combined with Combat Reflexes this can get you any number of extra attacks in an encounter, if you are prepared to fight defensively. Also being trained in Tumble is a big plus, at least to make the most out of fighting defensively.

They all have different costs, but I would like to have some input on how they compare to each other.

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sienn_sconn

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2018, 10:36:15 pm »
I've not really used any of these talents, but I'll give some input.

Depending on the build, this talents have different values.

Compared to it's Redirect Shot counterpart, Riposte could be a bit better (Redirect Shot being 1/turn and Riposte being 1/encounter makes sense considering that Saga began to lean heavily towards the 1/encounter ideas used for 4e D&D, but but perhaps they felt that Riposte would become a default talent taken by all lightsaber duelists if it was 1/turn).  If you take Recurring Success, you could get two free attacks per encounter while negating your enemy's attacks.  I imagine it would shine with a high attack bonus/high Use the Force bonus to make the most of the two involved mechanics.

Djem So is nice for those builds that expect to get hit (no Block and/or low Reflex), but you better have the hit points and recovery options to back up that philosophy.  On the other hand, using your Force point of each round for your (possible) counterattack is a major pain (made slightly more tolerable by Fluid Riposte and Falling Avalanche giving you extra Force points specifically for Djem So).

Now with both of these out, I seem to recall someone doing a houserule, placing Riposte as a prereq for Djem So and making both of those talents better (like allowing Riposte to be used 1/turn instead of 1/encounter or removing the FOrce point cost of Djem So, or something thereabouts), although I cannot remember where I saw it, and my Google Fu is failing me.

Counterpunch is a good talent.  It does require a few extras to really shine (like Combat Reflexes and the Melee Duelist talent Advantageous Opportunity), but so does everything.  It's major downside is that it requires someone to attack you and does nothing against Force powers.  I have a Sith Apprentice NPC that uses a lightsaber pike along with the talents and feats mentioned here to fend off multiple lightsaber wielders.
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fairytalejedi

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 11:53:55 am »
The problem with Counterpunch is that you get no attacks unless an opponent attacks you in melee. If it was usable in conjunction with Melee Defense, it would be a no-brainer (and Steven O would probably pull his hair out over how broken it could be). But while I do think it represents Soresu well in concept, a typical Jedi would have to devote at least one if three levels in Melee Duelist in order to get the most out of Counterpunch, and even then it gets you nothing against ranged opponents.

As for Riposte, that book came out before lightsaber form powers. As originally intended it's probably not that weak, but became second rate after JATM came out.
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StevenO

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 02:04:19 pm »
Ripost:  1/enc make lightsaber attack against opponent whose attack you used Block to stop
Improved Ripost:  Block attempt that triggered Ripost does not count toward cumulative penalty. [errata removes 1/turn]
Djem So: 1/round when hit with melee attack spend FP to make attack against that opponent.
Counterpunch:  When Fighting Defensively any attack by adjacent against you provokes AoO.

Start with the easy one, Counterpunch.  The issue here may just be that to use it you need to use Fight Defensively, but not so far as to take the NO ATTACK option, which basically eats that standard action you would have used to make your attack.  Counterpunch basically just gives you back some of the potential you lose by choosing to go Fight Defensively to gain the better REF.  In many ways it is almost a talent version of Melee Defense (wanted to say Combat Expertise but that's 3.5) except somewhat switched around.  Generally, the feat is going to be better but not everyone will meet its INT 13 prere and it actually requires you to make a melee attack (guess you should be able to attack nothing) but has a better penalty to REF conversion unless you happen to be trained in Acrobatics.  Where Counterpunch can become better is when you have those things that trigger for making an AoO and where Counterpunch would allow you to make multiple AoO assuming you had them.

The "I kind a like them" actually points to their power maybe not being so far off for what they do.  Ok, Improved Ripost is pretty much complete crap but it is there to mirror Improved Redirect; sorry to say this but we really should not expect everything we see in the supplements to be great unless we wanted to see huge amounts of power creep in the game which I'm glad we didn't.  I know I've offered some defense to the cost of Ripost sometime before but I think the big difference came down to Ripost letting you make a lightsaber attack against the offender (with all of the bonus and damage that you'd get using your lightsaber) while Redirect just deals "normal weapon damage" which I take to mean it will lose any special properties given to it by the attacker; of course some may interpret that "normal weapon damage" to include all the damage bonuses the Force User would be adding to the ranged attack which may somewhat change this.  Then perhaps it had to do with what attack bonus the "return attack" gets as the Jedi may not have a great ranged attack especially as compared to his lightsaber attack ability.  In any event I suspect it has to do with the expectation that the Jedi's Lightsaber attack is going to be more potent that and Redirected blaster attack.  Come to think of it perhaps the number of ranged attacks that can get around or ignore Redirect also makes me think Ripost was restricted because pretty much every melee attack would trigger it as there are few area melee attacks.  If you're looking for my thoughts on improving Ripost I may just allow it to be recharged at the cost of a FP but then that does step on Djem So a bit.

Djem So is certainly an interesting talent.  With it you're basically saying "my melee attacks are better than yours" and willing to spend the FP to gain additional attacks.  You really should NOT figure on using this every fight but when you do want to use it I'm afraid but I do think spending a FP to gain an additional attack, even if it is under specific conditions, is a pretty powerful thing.
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MERC_1

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 07:08:20 pm »
First of all, thank you all for your long and thorough responses!

[...] I seem to recall someone doing a houserule, placing Riposte as a prereq for Djem So and making both of those talents better (like allowing Riposte to be used 1/turn instead of 1/encounter or removing the FOrce point cost of Djem So, or something thereabouts), although I cannot remember where I saw it, and my Google Fu is failing me.
I could see something like this work out, but I'm not sure about dropping the FP cost. Maybe Djem So would expand the uses of Riposte at the cost of a FP each time after the first in an encounter? I think StevenO suggests something similar as an option to improve Ripost.

Counterpunch is a good talent.  It does require a few extras to really shine (like Combat Reflexes and the Melee Duelist talent Advantageous Opportunity), but so does everything.  It's major downside is that it requires someone to attack you and does nothing against Force powers.  I have a Sith Apprentice NPC that uses a lightsaber pike along with the talents and feats mentioned here to fend off multiple lightsaber wielders.
I think you are talking about the talent Advantageous Strike, but your reasoning about how to get the most out of this talent is sound. If combined with something that let you get an AoO and stop anyone from getting away, it could be even better!

As for Riposte, that book came out before lightsaber form powers. As originally intended it's probably not that weak, but became second rate after JATM came out.
Yes, I had an inkling that there was better options that could do this. I have to look those powers over once more. Yes, Fluid Riposte and Makashi Riposte do similar things without the investment in talents.

Ripost:  1/enc make lightsaber attack against opponent whose attack you used Block to stop
Improved Ripost:  Block attempt that triggered Ripost does not count toward cumulative penalty. [errata removes 1/turn]
Djem So: 1/round when hit with melee attack spend FP to make attack against that opponent.
Counterpunch:  When Fighting Defensively any attack by adjacent against you provokes AoO.
How nice of you to sum these up for us all!

The "I kind a like them" actually points to their power maybe not being so far off for what they do.  Ok, Improved Ripost is pretty much complete crap but it is there to mirror Improved Redirect; sorry to say this but we really should not expect everything we see in the supplements to be great unless we wanted to see huge amounts of power creep in the game which I'm glad we didn't.
Yes, none of the three talents are bad, they are just not all good either. But I still don't appreciate talents that are: "complete crap"! :-D So, Improved Redirect would probably need some love from the GM before anyone would use it in play. I could see Improved Redirect have an entirely different effect like a potential persistent condition if moving the target down the DT.

Djem So is certainly an interesting talent.  With it you're basically saying "my melee attacks are better than yours" and willing to spend the FP to gain additional attacks.  You really should NOT figure on using this every fight but when you do want to use it I'm afraid but I do think spending a FP to gain an additional attack, even if it is under specific conditions, is a pretty powerful thing.
Yes, maybe the most interesting talent of all three, even with a FP cost.

It is late, and this is the best I could come up with in short time. I will take another look after a good nights sleep .

StevenO

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 07:53:27 pm »
Quote
Yes, none of the three talents are bad, they are just not all good either. But I still don't appreciate talents that are: "complete crap"! :-D So, Improved Redirect would probably need some love from the GM before anyone would use it in play. I could see Improved Redirect have an entirely different effect like a potential persistent condition if moving the target down the DT.
Assume you mean Improved Ripost which is a talent that gets used 1/encounter at best and may not even have an effect then.  Now if Ripost was usable multiple times per encounter that would improve Improved Ripost a bit.  Of course it would probably be better if it actually improved the Ripost attack itself when in turn would make Ripost better; not entirely sure how that should be but maybe the Improved Ripost attack would treat the target as flat-footed or something.
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MERC_1

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 01:14:31 am »
Assume you mean Improved Ripost which is a talent that gets used 1/encounter at best and may not even have an effect then.  Now if Ripost was usable multiple times per encounter that would improve Improved Ripost a bit.  Of course it would probably be better if it actually improved the Ripost attack itself when in turn would make Ripost better; not entirely sure how that should be but maybe the Improved Ripost attack would treat the target as flat-footed or something.

Yes of course, you mention "Improved Ripost" being complete crap, so that is the one I'm talking about. It was the mention of Improved Redirect in the same post that set me off in the wrong direction...

That Improved Ripost would treat the target as flat-footed is a pretty good idea.

Now on second thought, why not replace Improved Ripost with Precise Ripost, or you could just add this as an additional talent. It could have the same effect as Precise Redirect, +5 on the attack?

Some of these changes could actually make it worth spending a feat on Recurring Success to get a second Ripost in an encounter.

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 01:33:35 pm »
...

Yes of course, you mention "Improved Ripost" being complete crap, so that is the one I'm talking about. It was the mention of Improved Redirect in the same post that set me off in the wrong direction...

That Improved Ripost would treat the target as flat-footed is a pretty good idea.

Now on second thought, why not replace Improved Ripost with Precise Ripost, or you could just add this as an additional talent. It could have the same effect as Precise Redirect, +5 on the attack?

Some of these changes could actually make it worth spending a feat on Recurring Success to get a second Ripost in an encounter.
Well of course this thread will deal with a bit of misdirection....

Giving +5 on the attack!  What are you on?  Attack bonuses of that size are pretty much unheard of especially if you consider how some of that could be converted into a damage bonus.  Looking it up Precise Direct give a DAMAGE bonus of +1d so that will generally not average more than +5 and probably less; with a +5 bonus on the attack the Jedi, assuming he had Rapid Strike, can turn that into +3 with +1d.

I guess another though may be to turn Ripost from 1/encounter to 1/minute (ie 1/10 rounds).  Not sure many fights last much longer than that but I know I run "encounters" as being longer than that in many cases so having the reset could be helpful.
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MERC_1

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2018, 04:22:22 pm »
Giving +5 on the attack!  What are you on?  Attack bonuses of that size are pretty much unheard of especially if you consider how some of that could be converted into a damage bonus.  Looking it up Precise Direct give a DAMAGE bonus of +1d so that will generally not average more than +5 and probably less; with a +5 bonus on the attack the Jedi, assuming he had Rapid Strike, can turn that into +3 with +1d.
Aha, yet another mixup. Not enough sleep on my part. The talent that adds a +5 to Redirect Shot is not Improved Redirect, it is Shien.

Quote
Shien
Whenever you redirect a deflected blaster bolt (see the Redirect Shot talent, page 41), you gain a +5 bonus on your ranged attack roll.
So there is such a talent for Redirect Shot, it is just a PrC talent. But it may apply every turn if you are subject to blaster fire.

Also there is Advantageous Strike, a Melee Duelist talent that grants +5 on AoOs! This may apply once a turn or more, but you need to get a AoO.
Quote
Advantageous Strike
You take advantage of your opponent's haste. You gain a +5 bonus on attacks of opportunity with melee weapons you are proficient with.
So, I'm not on anything! :-D

There are several talents that situationally add +5 to hit. I may find others if I go look.

So I did look. There are:
Begin Attack Run
Mandalorian Glory
Rising Anger (up to +5)

I'm not saying that +5 to the attack would be the most appropriate for a talent building on Ripost, but as it is once per encounter, I don't find over the top.

StevenO

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2018, 04:31:21 pm »
Try to keep things entertaining is all.  It's just that there aren't a lot of things that give a +5 attack bonuses in the game.  As a 1/encounter thing it may not be so bad although I would not combine it with my suggestion to treat the target as flat footed.  I actually figured the FF idea can stem from the idea that the talent may be so rarely used that it comes as a shock that the opponent can't respond to it; on the plus side in a jedi vs. jedi type matchup that condition would also stop the reactions from hindering the return attack.
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StevenO

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Re: A not so simple question: Riposte and Djem So
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 06:35:51 pm »
To bring this back I'm now thinking that the Riposte's "role model" of Redirect Shot is often played stronger than it should be.  These things that give you a free attack out of turn aren't so common so either they should be rare but powerful (Riposte) or far less powerful when they can be used far more often.

I'll contend that Redirect Shot lets the Jedi redirect  a shot Deflect was "successfully" used against (not that the attack even needed to be close to hitting) giving the Jedi a ranged attack.  My belief is turning to that redirect should treat the attack as coming from the Jedi right down to any non-proficient penalties that attacking with that weapon would cause.  It's still quite possibly a free attack every round in addition to normal attacks but why would it be as accurate for someone who has no training with ranged weapons as someone who knows the ins and outs of the weapon being redirected?  As for Shien I see it as being there to help out against that penalty for those who don't otherwise have the training in ranged weapons.  Riposte almost never is going to have that same issue as the user is almost always proficient in the lightsaber.

...

There are several talents that situationally add +5 to hit. I may find others if I go look.

So I did look. There are:
Begin Attack Run
Mandalorian Glory
Rising Anger (up to +5)

I'm not saying that +5 to the attack would be the most appropriate for a talent building on Ripost, but as it is once per encounter, I don't find over the top.
Begin Attack Run is really better seen as a +3 bonus that stacks on an existing +2 bonus but because you don't do that it's just +5 to start with.

Mandalorian Glory requires that you drop a target to zero hit points, in only for your next attack, and can only be used 1/encounter.  Not the most user friendly combo.

Rising Anger takes time to build up; getting to +5 on that will require waiting for five rounds before attacking and what's more is 5 rounds of your allies getting beat up.  Again not the greatest way to get that bonus up.
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