Author Topic: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users  (Read 226 times)

MERC_1

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2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« on: September 12, 2018, 06:19:37 pm »
So, I have been thinking about this for some time. Maybe a few years or so. Why is it that force users are the only ones to get access to 2nd tier PrCs?

For force users the master level PrCs are the final stage of a high level force user. They add force secrets to the already considerable power of force users. For some reason there was seen a need to add three different PrC for this purpose.

I do think that all the PrC that already exist are plenty and there may be no need for this, but I would like to have some anyway!

Did anyone do this already?

I was thinking of maybe three different classes, all requirening level 12+ and build on a number of similar PrC with similar concepts.

So, there could be one for the ultimate soldier type character, requiring talents from Elite Trooper or some other similar PrC. So, there should be more than one path.

Maybe another that build on a few stealthy PrCs, for the highest tier of spies, assassins and so on.

Possibly one that builds on the power hungry PrCs like Crime Lord, Corporate Agent. Pretty much for high level Nobles and Scoundrels focusing on influencing others and boosting allies.

Maybe one that focus on tech, but I'm not sure about this one.

The Idea here is that each of these classes should be unique, pretty costly to get into, and even harder to combine. They should all be 5 level classes, and they should require you to pick up 4 or 5 levels of one of the specified PrCs by requiring 2-3 talents from a single PrC. There should be about 3 PrCs that could lead to each and every class. So you give up some flexibility of dipping into too may PrCs and are rewarded by accessing this new PrC at level 13 or above.

Anyone have any ideas?

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StevenO

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2018, 07:43:48 pm »
You could say that Jedi Master and Sith Lord are needed to get the defense scores for those character types closer to the +4 that many non-Force User would have.  Force Disciple may get that +6 WILL but it comes at a steep cost and when it already gains immunity to Mind Affecting Effects it's almost a moot point.  Now I certainly agree that having three of them is excessive when for the most part all can be summed up as:  Grant a special ability at 1st-level, give Force Secrets each level after that, and give access to all Tradition Talents regardless of the tradition's normal entry requirements.  I've long thought about just having one "Force Master" class with some kind a variable "special" at 1st-level.

When it comes to a "3rd-tier PrC" for Non-Force Users I really draw a blank because there are already so many other PrC options that combine very well to boost a character's power.  For example I really like the Elite Trooper, Gunslinger, Officer trio which is giving you a +4 class bonus on all defense scores.  I'm sure other combos like that exist.  I mean aside from the Force Secrets and each Tradition talent access is there really any reason to stay in a "Master" class?  Ok, one more FP each level but they are probably the type most likely to spend the FP and just how often do you see PCs running out of points prematurely?
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MERC_1

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2018, 06:21:13 pm »
When it comes to a "3rd-tier PrC" for Non-Force Users I really draw a blank because there are already so many other PrC options that combine very well to boost a character's power.  For example I really like the Elite Trooper, Gunslinger, Officer trio which is giving you a +4 class bonus on all defense scores.  I'm sure other combos like that exist.  I mean aside from the Force Secrets and each Tradition talent access is there really any reason to stay in a "Master" class?  Ok, one more FP each level but they are probably the type most likely to spend the FP and just how often do you see PCs running out of points prematurely?

Sure, those three are a great combo, but how often does anyone go 10 levels in any of those three clases? I do like the flexibility of dipping in many classes and PrCs when so required. But I lack the reward of following one class deep into the levels with a clear progression if so desired. The Jedi have a clear progression from base class to PrC to master class. I don't see such a clear path for most characters, at least not in the higher levels. Of course I know that most games does not, and probably should not go that in level anyway. The game does play better at lower levels.

But I still would like to have that option, to have a master class for other PrC to lead into. They should be built around the same level of requirements as the other master classes, but without the force angle. I will mull this over some more and post something when I get the time.

StevenO

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2018, 10:01:57 pm »
Something to consider about the "master" classes is that they may not be nearly so challenging as you may think.  I'll admit that Force Disciple is hardest of them to enter but that's because it's VERY SPECIFIC requirements make Force Adept necessary which it turn requires 3 talents to enter.  IIRC the minimum CL with a level in Force Disciple is Nonheroic6/heroic1x3/FA3/FD1 which is CL9.  Sith Lord only takes CL6 with NH10/SA2/SL1.  The Jedi classes may depend a little on how you read the Lightsaber creation rules (I require 7th-level and having a FP to spend on it) but Jedi master is the NH8/Jedi1/JK2/Any1/JM1 for CL7. 

An odd thing about Jedi Master is that a character COULD enter Jedi Master BEFORE meeting the requirements to enter Jedi Knight.  That's because JK requires a +7 BAB and JM only requires 12 level.  "But how's that work?"  I'll admit it's very suboptimal but you could qualify for JM using a NH7/Noble1/Scout1/Scoundrel1/FA2 which only has a +6 BAB despite being 12th-level; next level could be Jedi Master but could NOT be Jedi Knight.

Guess I'm just throwing things out there but for those "2nd-tier" PrCs the only thing required from another PrC is something you could get from FOUR different PrCs.  This makes me think that making a "2nd-tier" class that requires something specific from one other PrC is a bit crazy.  If you want a different idea perhaps those "Force Using PrCs" should allow Force Secrets to be selected instead of the normal Techniques or talents for the last few PrC levels.  If you were to go 5 levels deep in a "master class" then you aren't taking any more than 8 levels in other PrCs.  You ask how often do you see a non-Force user go 10 levels deep in a PrC but when do you see a Force User do that either?  Besides that I don't plan PCs out to 20th level anyway as I believe the natural "max level" is lower than that.

If you want to see more PrCs take out to 10th level then perhaps they need a big carrot out at the end.  To some that may be a 3rd, or even an unheard of 4th, tier talent but if getting someone to take PrC10 is the goal then perhaps that "special" classes get on even levels needs to ramp up more at the end.  With so many classes that special is just a +1 this or that that goes up to +5 at PrC 10.  Perhaps more PrCs should have had specials like Infiltrator where you may get different things for different levels.  Those specials are perhaps the biggest thing that makes PrCs different from the base classes but some of those bonuses don't feel like they are any better than a feat you might take at that level instead.
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Zuko Mal

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2018, 09:14:42 am »
I think that SteveO makes some good points, but if you really wanted to have tier 3 PrCs....

I think you could easily make an General/Admiral class, that builds on officer. They could gain "tactical secrets" (call it what you will) that affect starship maneuvers in a similar way that force techniques give bonuses to force powers. Feeling generous? Let the PC use starship maneuvers in a capital ship. That will make them feel like Thrawn. I'd be interested in ground maneuvers that officers could use in blaster fights. For better or worse such could transform your game into 4E D&D with a Warlord.

With PrCs like "Criminal", "Assassin" and "Privateer" it seems like Crime Lord could also be a 3rd tier PrC. They already get a talent every level, which seems strong, so simply pumping up up defense bonus a little.

I like the idea of an Inventor/Tech PrC though giving tech bonuses beyond those available with the tech specialist/superior tech feats seems dangerous. But if you are okay with PCs inventing super weapons than you could give them "tech/science secrets". You would also need to accept that high tech "goodies" would be handed out to the rest of the party.

Has anyone though of having a place here specifically for developing and discussing home brew material? It would be nice to have it all in one place. 

MERC_1

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 06:09:45 pm »
I do like what you are saying, but for now I will just clip out 2 or 3 bits that I want to adress:

Guess I'm just throwing things out there but for those "2nd-tier" PrCs the only thing required from another PrC is something you could get from FOUR different PrCs.  This makes me think that making a "2nd-tier" class that requires something specific from one other PrC is a bit crazy.
I agree 100% to that requiring something specific from one PrC would be a bit nuts! That is not what I would do at all. IF there was a 2nd-tier PrC that I had made it should be possible to enter it from 3 to 4 different PrC's. The requirements would be 2 talents from one of the trees A, B or C... This would normally require you to go at least 3 levels deep into one of the different PrC's that grant access to those trees. Thus there should be at least 3 different PrC's that can grant access to a single 2nd-tier PrC.

For example:

The Shadow
Requirements:
2 (or 3?) talents from one of these talent trees: Assassin, Infiltration or Vanguard
Level 12+
Skill Focus: Stealth
...

If you were to go 5 levels deep in a "master class" then you aren't taking any more than 8 levels in other PrCs.  You ask how often do you see a non-Force user go 10 levels deep in a PrC but when do you see a Force User do that either?  Besides that I don't plan PCs out to 20th level anyway as I believe the natural "max level" is lower than that.
True, not often.
I don't want force anyone to go 10 levels in a PrC, but maybe a bit beyond the normal sweet spot that is just 1-3 levels in most PrC's. If the do, the may lose a bit of flexibility, but the focus is rewarded with access to a 2nd tire PrC. Of course if you want to dip into as many PrC as you can find, go right ahead. I don't want to prevent that.

If you want to see more PrCs take out to 10th level then perhaps they need a big carrot out at the end.  To some that may be a 3rd, or even an unheard of 4th, tier talent but if getting someone to take PrC10 is the goal then perhaps that "special" classes get on even levels needs to ramp up more at the end.  With so many classes that special is just a +1 this or that that goes up to +5 at PrC 10.  Perhaps more PrCs should have had specials like Infiltrator where you may get different things for different levels. Those specials are perhaps the biggest thing that makes PrCs different from the base classes but some of those bonuses don't feel like they are any better than a feat you might take at that level instead.
There are actually a few 4th tire and one 5th tire talent! Many of these belong to the Crime Lord PrC. The one and only 5th tire talent is Unsavory Reputation, requiring Inspire Fear I-III and Notorious. I do like the specials of The Infiltrator and The Improviser to give another example.

StevenO

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 08:40:54 pm »
...snip...

There are actually a few 4th tire and one 5th tire talent! Many of these belong to the Crime Lord PrC. The one and only 5th tire talent is Unsavory Reputation, requiring Inspire Fear I-III and Notorious. I do like the specials of The Infiltrator and The Improviser to give another example.

In all fairness if you're getting it in Crimelord we should keep in mind that a "5th-tier" talent only requires 5 levels where it takes 9 levels (or creative/lucky multiclassing) to reach that level.  In most cases a 3rd-tier talent is a 5 level commitment which does hurt a bit when you are looking at a 3/4 BAB class.  I guess I'd point out that the more interesting specials in Infiltrator come at 4th and 8th levels which maximizes the BAB gain from the class and covers good exit points.

While I'm far from sold on the idea of more "master classes" (sorry but 2nd tier PrC doesn't seem all that genuine to me) if you're going to create them they should actually be very limited.  By this I mean what makes the "master force user" classes really special?  It needs to be the Force Secrets as one could (and some have) argued that the Tradition talents are already available to any Force Sensitive even if it requires jumping through what are often roleplaying hoops.  What's a defining feature of Force Secrets?  Most (All in the SECR) require spending a FP to use for effect or a DP for a greater effect meaning they all burn through what could/should be a limited character resource.  This leads me to think that your major mechanic should also burn through the limited resource and here I guess I'd ask what you think may be appropriate.

Looking at the Force Secrets we've got Devastating Power which increases the "power" of damage dice 50% when a FP is used and doubling dice with a DP. 
Distant Power increase range x10 with a FP and may make within a star system with a DP but you still need to see the target. 
Multitarget is good as you can make a Force Power go from one to two targets with a FP and to 1 target/4 levels with a DP (which means make 5).
Quicken which speeds up a standard Power activation to swift (FP) or even a reaction (DP).

So what comparisons can be made?  I'd say that something similar can be done for attacks with the right feats/talents.  Guessing this a big reason I don't see the point in those higher level to enter PrCs.
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MERC_1

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 03:42:22 pm »
First, I 'd like to thank StevenO for his comprehensive answer. I'll try to answer his concerns and questions as best I can. I will also adress Zuko Mal in a separate post later, his input is most welcome and I will try to respond shortly.

In all fairness if you're getting it in Crimelord we should keep in mind that a "5th-tier" talent only requires 5 levels where it takes 9 levels (or creative/lucky multiclassing) to reach that level. [...]
I believe that the legendary 5th-tier talent require 5 levels of the PrC Crime Lord to reach, and 7 base class levels before that. So that is at the 12th level at the earliest. How to do that with 9 levels by your counting is a mystery. Using NH-levels you could do so by CL 8; a Noble1, NH6, Crime Lord5 would do.

Defensive Circle (Jedi Knight), Full Control (Droid Commander), Nowhere to Run (Bounty Hunter), Shield Gauntlet Redirect (Kilian Ranger FU tradition) and Uncanny Dodge II (Scout) are all 4th tire talents. The utility of these talents varies greatly, but you are most likely not seeing these very often in use due to the high level and focus required. Defensive Circle can be pretty good, at least in a party with multiple Jedi or Lightsabre wielders.

While I'm far from sold on the idea of more "master classes" (sorry but 2nd tier PrC doesn't seem all that genuine to me) if you're going to create them they should actually be very limited.  By this I mean what makes the "master force user" classes really special?  It needs to be the Force Secrets as one could (and some have) argued that the Tradition talents are already available to any Force Sensitive even if it requires jumping through what are often roleplaying hoops.  What's a defining feature of Force Secrets?  Most (All in the SECR) require spending a FP to use for effect or a DP for a greater effect meaning they all burn through what could/should be a limited character resource.  This leads me to think that your major mechanic should also burn through the limited resource and here I guess I'd ask what you think may be appropriate.
This helps me quite a bit actually! Force secrets is all about power, at the cost of FP or DP. Access to Tradition talents is flexibility, it lets you mix and match abilities that may be difficult to get depending on the era of play (and you GM). It is also about discovery, letting you learn “new” unusual talents. But all those secrets and talents are about the force, any new 2nd tier PrC should be about anything but that.



There should be at least 3 PrC that grant access to any new 2nd tier PrC, or possibly gaining access by going deep in a single base class. They should have access to one talent tree of each PrC that grant access to the class, possibly one new tree as well, thus granting the flexibility the Tradition talents. Any new talent should fill a hole or add something new to the game.



Any Special Ability or Secret should be unique, not coming from a list available to other 2nd tier PrC. They can be fixed to a level or come from a short list. A list gives more flexibility, like expanding the uses of Share Talent from the Officer PrC or letting you apply the effect of talents on your allies when using Lead Infiltrator. Those effects probably don’t belong in the same 2nd tier PrC or list…

Another possibility is to expand the usefulness of Persuasion and Deception, for example with a Special that let you use said skill(s) on a group. Maybe you can persuade your Cha-bonus number of people at once? Double it with a FP and even more with a DP. Another Special Ability could reduce the pesky penalties that are associated with those skills. A minus 5 costs a FP and a minus 10 costs a DP for example. Normally you can’t make more then one use of these skills in an encounter, at least not against the same target. Maybe one of the Special Abilities of Secrets could let you attempt a skill more than once in an encounter, at a cost.

A sniper/combat/ranger 2nd tier PrC could have a Special Ability or Secret that let you attempt an impossible shot. Maybe you could shoot a bit longer than the weapon normally could reach, picking of a target from 1,000 meters with some luck. Or use a weapon to manipulate an object, like shooting the TV to change channel or close a blastdoor, call an elevator or whatever. Now go watch that episode of The Simpsons…! Now, maybe some GM would let you try this at the cost of a DP or a FP, but then it is not something that you know you can do. They could be called Weapon Tricks.

These are all just a few examples, not at all ready for play. They would need to be refined and adapted to fit a specific 2nd tier PrC.

StevenO

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Re: 2nd tier Prestige Classes for non-force users
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 07:52:52 pm »
That "9 levels" is talking about 9 levels in the class giving access to the talent; if the talent is available to multiple classes multiclassing could get it a level or more earlier by cutting out the no-talent levels.

I'll point out that your "tier 4" Force Tradition talents are available in as few as 4 levels; when those talents can be taken with any available slot getting them shouldn't be much of an issue.  Uncanny Dodge II happens to be an AWARENESS talent; Scout may get access to that talent tree but so do the Bounty Hunter and Gunslinger classes and I'm not sure how many other PrCs get access to it as well. 
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