Author Topic: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter  (Read 583 times)

fairytalejedi

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 03:21:42 pm »
So the guys of the Council Forcecast did an episode on lightsaber variants, which got me thinking about the curved hilt.

Supposedly, this is ideal for Makashi (false) and also good for Djem So (false). Drew Karpyshyn in the Bane trilogy suggests that the curved handle alters the angle of your attacks; in fact its purpose is to alter your wrist angle without altering the angle of your attacks — and in any case, this is more ergonomic only for thrusting attacks with the point of the blade. An angled hilt is used in foil and epée fencing where you can only score with the tip of the blade; it's not used in saber fencing where you can score with the edge of the blade.

The simple fact is that when attacking with the edge of the blade — which all lightsaber forms are designed to do, including Makashi — a curved hilt is less ergonomic and makes your bladework less precise. Characters like Dooku and Ventress are constantly having to compensate for the deficiencies of their lightsaber handles, since they fight as if they were using straight handles.

In short, there is no valid in-universe reason to use curved lightsaber hilts. They are purely an art department "this looks cool" thing. The official garbage about their supposed benefits is the exact opposite of the truth.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:23:53 pm by fairytalejedi »
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Reign_of_the_Jedi_Lords

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 12:49:17 pm »
Quite true, but I would point out that most saber-like swords have curved hilts: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Sabre_mg_7029.jpg

Still, that's a pure hack and slash sword. Really then, Shii-Cho seems like the only form that could possibly benefit from a curves hilt.

What's your take on the other non-typical lightsabers (lightsaber pike, crossguard lightsaber, double-bladed lightsaber, etc.)?

Malancthon

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 02:07:46 pm »
What's your take on the other non-typical lightsabers (lightsaber pike, crossguard lightsaber, double-bladed lightsaber, etc.)?

I believe we get a hint with her spaceship submission.  ;D

What do you get a guy who has a ridiculous, stupid, ugly-looking lightsaber? A ridiculous, stupid, ugly-looking starship to go along with it!

This starfighter is pure garbage, just like Kylo Ren's light claymore. It makes a hideous noise in flight, something like a cross between an X-Wing, a TIE Fighter, and a Wookie in heat. It is slow; not very maneuverable for its size; its weapon systems are terrible, potentially even suicidal; and it comes equipped with the galaxy's most incompetent astromech droid. Basically, this ship is designed to make you immediately hate the character - just like his light claymore.
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fairytalejedi

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 06:39:44 pm »
The shoto is the only lightsaber variant that's legit, in my opinion. Historical musketeer types fought with a short sword in the off-hand. In a more realistic SW universe, the default fighting style might be standard saber + shoto, with single standard saber and two standard sabers being fairly common alternatives.
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Malancthon

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 06:53:56 pm »
I do like the "feel" of a curved hilt lightsaber. I remember playing with replica and toy versions of Dooku's saber and it does feel neat. I'd be interested in figuring out a more appropriate use of a curved hilt lightsaber, especially as a Saga character, although as Reign says, it'd be more likely a hack 'n slash fighting style.

I also think the toyetic Inquisitor lightsaber isn't a terrible idea. A common anime staple is the spinning sabers which is realistically unfeasible (you'd need a longer hilt, similar to Maul's saber, to be able to spin it around, and where your hand would be shifts- I've spent enough time spinning rakes and poles around trying to figure it out  :D ). Hasbro came up with the idea for a Grevious toy that allowed kids to spin the blades around- that's fun. Hasbro did it again for a Clone Wars Darth Maul figure (the threepack with a Nightsister and Savage, which used an "energy effect" piece to replicate the spinning feature). So it makes sense that'd it'd eventually become an official thing. I wonder how it'd translate into Saga and styles.

Just because it's silly and stupid doesn't mean it isn't fun.
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Reign_of_the_Jedi_Lords

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 09:04:55 pm »
The shoto is the only lightsaber variant that's legit, in my opinion. Historical musketeer types fought with a short sword in the off-hand. In a more realistic SW universe, the default fighting style might be standard saber + shoto, with single standard saber and two standard sabers being fairly common alternatives.

As far a dual wielding goes, I agree with you. The only historic uses I've even heard of two swords at once were Japan and the Renaissance era. Even then, it was usually sword and dagger rather than two full-length swords - Miyamoto Musashi, a famous 14th to 15th centery ronin, was know for utilizing two blades in combat; however, he only used the long katana along with the shorter wakizashi.

I think it's better to compare Jedi weapons with the weapons of ancient Asia, rather than European weapons. A lightsaber pike, for instance, can easily be compared to a naginata or yari. A San-Ni staff compares to the Chinese three-section staff, a great lightsaber can be compared to a odachi, and so one. Of course, you have the lightfoil - which is just a lightsaber form of a European rapier. The comparisons aren't perfect, for instance the whole point of the rapier was that it was a very light-weight sword - something that's moot point with lightsabers (their blades all weighing the same).

« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:07:58 pm by Reign_of_the_Jedi_Lords »

Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 09:35:01 pm »
The shoto is the only lightsaber variant that's legit, in my opinion. Historical musketeer types fought with a short sword in the off-hand. In a more realistic SW universe, the default fighting style might be standard saber + shoto, with single standard saber and two standard sabers being fairly common alternatives.

As far as sabers in saga edition, what's your take on dual-phase sabers?  I imagine them as filling the role that the lightsaber pike was supposed to fill.  With a longer handle, like that of a double-sided sabre, someone could use the long blade of the dual phase in way similar to what a spear fighter would.  Without the obvious disadvantage of the lightsabre pike (possibility of the end being hacked off).

I could see a great sabers being used as well, provided they had some sort of cortosis or phrik crossguard.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:44:28 pm by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 09:59:23 pm »
Since a lightsaber blade is weightless, a great lightsaber or dual-phase lightsaber would actually make a pretty good weapon. It may not an effective dueling weapon (though the reach is going to be quite nice) but it'd be a beast against massed infantry - or in any kind of open battle, really. Just my two credits.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, there's no reason while a great/dual phase lightsaber couldn't be used in a duel. The only problems with such a weapon would be the possibility of someone with a medium length 'saber catching the end of the long one and then sliding themselves and their 'saber up the length of it. However, I have no idea how "sticky" a lightsaber blade is, so such a tactic might not actually be possible.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 10:04:17 pm by Reign_of_the_Jedi_Lords »

Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 10:39:15 pm »
That's only a problem if you think linearly.  Provided you have some freedom of movement, you can overcome such a situation with side to side movement.

If you are trapped in a linear situation (several examples in the movies), as standard lightsabers lack a guard, the opponent can't "slide" down the length of your blade without severely risking either his hands, or losing control of your weapon.  So I'd wager you'll still be able to hold your own.

Miyamoto Musashi, a famous 14th to 15th centery ronin, was know for utilizing two blades in combat; however, he only used the long katana along with the shorter wakizashi.

I believe in his own book, he indicated using two full-size weapons.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 11:29:32 pm by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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fairytalejedi

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2015, 12:09:27 am »

As far as sabers in saga edition, what's your take on dual-phase sabers?  I imagine them as filling the role that the lightsaber pike was supposed to fill.  With a longer handle, like that of a double-sided sabre, someone could use the long blade of the dual phase in way similar to what a spear fighter would.  Without the obvious disadvantage of the lightsabre pike (possibility of the end being hacked off).

Dual phase could be designed differently for different uses. As you say, the extra long blade could serve as a pike. But I think a setting just a couple of centimeters longer would be more useful for dueling and for bodyguard blast deflection.

On a different topic, the lightsaber blade may be weightless but I don't think it would feel weightless all the time. Based on the humming sound it makes specifically when in motion, it seems the blade has air resistance, which would create the illusion of weight when it's swung.
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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2015, 03:22:38 pm »

I believe in his own book, he indicated using two full-size weapons.

Do you mean Go Rin No Sho? If so, I've never read it, so I wouldn't know. However, as far I know, Musashi never used two katana at the same time. His style of dual sword fighting, niten ichi, was apparently developed from the use of a jitte with a katana. A samurai owned a pair of matched swords - one long, one short - called daisho (translates as "big-little") which was a symbol of his honor and status. I haven't heard of two katana ever being carried by a bushi, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2015, 04:21:10 pm »

I believe in his own book, he indicated using two full-size weapons.

Do you mean Go Rin No Sho? If so, I've never read it, so I wouldn't know. However, as far I know, Musashi never used two katana at the same time. His style of dual sword fighting, niten ichi, was apparently developed from the use of a jitte with a katana. A samurai owned a pair of matched swords - one long, one short - called daisho (translates as "big-little") which was a symbol of his honor and status. I haven't heard of two katana ever being carried by a bushi, but I could be wrong.

It has been a long time since I read it.  He goes into it by saying that you should use both swords because you should always use all of your usable weaponry.  Also that wielding the sword in one hand is superior due to certain movements than become more difficult while wielding a sword in two.    You are correct in that samurai did not carry two full size swords.  He addressed this, explaining that carrying the long and short sword is a matter of duty and that since you have to carry a long and a short, you might as well use them.  However, the best way to train in this was to practice with two long swords.  Basically, if you were in a fight and had two katana available, use them; but he recognizes however that most samurai will only have a sword and companion sword when a weapon is needed.

Niten Ichi Ryu was famous for use of the sword and companion sword as you say, but this was primarily because this is what most samurai had and were required to carry; not because it was considered by Musashi to be the best setup.

I believe there are several instances of him utilizing a sword and similarly-sized stick or bokken in his duels, including in his most famous duel.  I believe he carved a bokken from an oar for use in that fight, but I may be wrong.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 04:23:38 pm by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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Malancthon

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2015, 04:52:19 pm »
ahem

Puts on his Musashi fanboy hat.

Musashi began working on the two sword style after he retired from dueling, after approximately 60 undefeated duels. He challenged the mindset of not using the wakazashi, which was primarily a ceremonial blade representing the Samurai class. He tested and spoke of using many different techniques, such as using the short sword in your primary hand as it was more nimble and accurate while the off-hand could use the larger sword to protect a wider area; as well as the more common practice of using the larger sword in the primary hand for more powerful strikes. However it was more important to Musashi to be prepared and skilled for any situation, which is part of why he advocated training with the off-hand as well as two full swords.

While he never used the Niten Ichi style during his duels (because he hadn't started it's development yet), it is said that on occasion he would take a second sword from a fallen foe and use two swords when he was fighting against a gang who were pissed that he was beating them up. As Jorundr said, it's because it's idiotic not to use any weapon of any opportunity.

Jorundr is also correct in that Musashi whittled a bokken out of an oar and **** his opponent's head, Sasaki Kojiro, after a number of challenges in which Musashi used psychology to unnearve Kojiro.

The Go Rin No Sho, the Book of Five Rings, is less about actual fighting but about the philosophy of a warrior, and how it can be applied in different situations, for Musashi not just in personal fighting but also for tactical warfare and for embracing other arts, including poetry and ink art. In this aspect it's similar to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do philosophy.
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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 10:09:50 pm »

You are correct in that samurai did not carry two full size swords.  He addressed this, explaining that carrying the long and short sword is a matter of duty and that since you have to carry a long and a short, you might as well use them.  However, the best way to train in this was to practice with two long swords.  Basically, if you were in a fight and had two katana available, use them; but he recognizes however that most samurai will only have a sword and companion sword when a weapon is needed.

Niten Ichi Ryu was famous for use of the sword and companion sword as you say, but this was primarily because this is what most samurai had and were required to carry; not because it was considered by Musashi to be the best setup.


I believe the reason for using two katana in practice is because that setup is actually inferior to a long and short sword combo. It's training with the most difficult setup, so that the best setup is even easier to use - like wearing weights on your ankle when you run. You're not going to wear them to the race, but they build up your strength. Same thing with using two long swords. Believe me, I fight with "practice swords" (read: sticks) all the time. It's easier to use a long and short stick combo than two long sticks - the two long sticks actually slow you down. Heck, I've fought my brother to a stalemate on multiple occasions (with single long sticks), only to win quickly when he breaks my stick in half and I pick up the other piece. And that's with two short swords.

Anyway, I'm sure two katana at once would work. I'm just not convinced it'd be as effective as short + long. But each to his own.

ahem

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While he never used the Niten Ichi style during his duels (because he hadn't started it's development yet), it is said that on occasion he would take a second sword from a fallen foe and use two swords when he was fighting against a gang who were ****ed that he was beating them up. As Jorundr said, it's because it's idiotic not to use any weapon of any opportunity.


Actually, I believe he used it in his "duel" with Yoshioka Matashichiro (actually the entire Yoshioka clan hidden in ambush) because he was badly outnumbered. But point taken.

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« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 10:18:18 pm by Reign_of_the_Jedi_Lords »

Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Re: Lightsaber Form Truth-O-Meter
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 11:52:24 pm »
I believe the reason for using two katana in practice is because that setup is actually inferior to a long and short sword combo. It's training with the most difficult setup, so that the best setup is even easier to use - like wearing weights on your ankle when you run. You're not going to wear them to the race, but they build up your strength. Same thing with using two long swords. Believe me, I fight with "practice swords" (read: sticks) all the time. It's easier to use a long and short stick combo than two long sticks - the two long sticks actually slow you down. Heck, I've fought my brother to a stalemate on multiple occasions (with single long sticks), only to win quickly when he breaks my stick in half and I pick up the other piece. And that's with two short swords.

Anyway, I'm sure two katana at once would work. I'm just not convinced it'd be as effective as short + long. But each to his own.


The idea with a short and long sword is to wield one broadly, and the other closely, because you really have little choice when it comes to the shorter weapon.  This matches up with my very limited experience (sword and axe).  Two full-size weapons is not inferior to full+short, it is just different because you have more tactical options in some ways (multiple opponents), and less in others (in your face).

Musashi himself is sadly silent on which he considered superior (as far as I know, though he was not a fan of schools favoring short swords; but that's different), but seems to take lengths to say "Hey dude, you're carrying this long and short sword with you all the time, so know how to use them;  But if you can, use two full size ones."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:38:34 am by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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