Author Topic: IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE Episode 7 discussion thread: SPOILERS!!  (Read 4268 times)

fairytalejedi

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There may have been more but in my mind that's a strange complaint for a star wars movie as, logically speaking, a guy with a sword is going to lose to a guy with telekinesis every time so we should have zero lightsaber duels between force users.

You left out Maul against Kenobi, Dooku against Anakin, Dooku against Kenobi, Yoda and Palpatine against each other...

Most duels between Force users feature Force attacks. It's more common than not. And those are Force attacks against people with Force defenses. Finn has no Force defenses. Zero. None. And Kylo Ren had just been gut shot.

Put it this way. If Donald Trump challenged me to a duel with fencing sabers, I would definitely toy with him for a while just because I could. But if I'd just been shot, then I wouldn't toy with him, I would finish him expeditiously. Boom, dead, fight over. It would be massively stupid for me to go for style points while bleeding from the abdomen.

So Kylo Ren is made out to be massively stupid.

I actually like how the Force Awakens duels were choreographed. But there's no in-universe justification for a saber fight between Ren and Finn. That's typical of Abrams movies. He doesn't consider in-universe justification to be important. That's a major drag on his Star Trek movies and now his Star Wars movie as well.
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MasterArkaine

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One thing you need to never forget about movies: They never follow logic, even if the said "logic" was in an earlier movie of the same type or even in the same movie itself.

So,  with that said FTJ. We would all fry Finn right away if we were Kylo, but that's because we are logical people. Kylo Ren was never logical in any way.
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xswazse12

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There may have been more but in my mind that's a strange complaint for a star wars movie as, logically speaking, a guy with a sword is going to lose to a guy with telekinesis every time so we should have zero lightsaber duels between force users.

You left out Maul against Kenobi,

Wasn't an important part of the fight. He kicked as often as he force hit. Maul also failed to finish it with a push down the shaft. Or even slice Kenobi's exposed body.


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Dooku against Anakin,

And all that force foolishness goes out the window when the fight gets real. The lightsaber light sequence was where the real conflict happened.

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Dooku against Kenobi,


I hated that so much. Cheap plot device to get Anakin away from Kenobi. Hence Kenobi gets worfed. Kenobi is one of the more defense oriented Jedi in the entire series and he goes down like a chump to force push. Really grating.

 
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Yoda and Palpatine against each other...

Yoda has no business touching a lightsaber IMO. He should have been 100% force based in his attack.

I had fun watching the prequel lightsaber duels the first time but I am more disappointed in them each time I watch them. Too flashy and showy.

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Most duels between Force users feature Force attacks. It's more common than not. And those are Force attacks against people with Force defenses. Finn has no Force defenses. Zero. None. And Kylo Ren had just been gut shot.

No conscious force defenses..

No, you're right. By all reason Kylo should have force pushed Finn just like he actually force pushed Rey.

But Maul should have killed Kenobi,
Yoda should have used the force exclusively,
Kenobi should have been able to defend against Dooku's simple force push attack,
Vader should have force pulled Luke's lightsaber out of his hands and taken him to Palpatine in the Empire Strikes back,
Kenobi should have force lifted General Grievous like the loser cyborg he was.

But none of that happened. Again, any force user who is going to fight another force user should NOT be activating a lightsaber near their own face as a second of lost control means their opponent can use their own lightsaber against them.



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Put it this way. If Donald Trump challenged me to a duel with fencing sabers, I would definitely toy with him for a while just because I could. But if I'd just been shot, then I wouldn't toy with him, I would finish him expeditiously. Boom, dead, fight over. It would be massively stupid for me to go for style points while bleeding from the abdomen.

So Kylo Ren is made out to be massively stupid.

Yes. I agree Kylo looks a bit naff. Just like Maul, Kenobi, Anakin (what high ground? I just pushed you into the lava!), vader and Yoda look like idiots during various portions of their career.

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I actually like how the Force Awakens duels were choreographed. But there's no in-universe justification for a saber fight between Ren and Finn. That's typical of Abrams movies. He doesn't consider in-universe justification to be important. That's a major drag on his Star Trek movies and now his Star Wars movie as well.

This isn't an abrams problem. It's a star wars problem.

fairytalejedi

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I rebuke this false equivalence!

Kylo Ren is an idiot with a derpsaber and a dark Jedi cosplay outfit. He does not stack up against any legitimate Star Wars villain.
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Jorundr Hrafnsson

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Too emo.  Needed more kick the dog moments.  Seems like he is the bad guy in this movie "just because".
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MasterArkaine

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Too emo.  Needed more kick the dog moments.  Seems like he is the bad eguy in this movie "just because".

Ren is a product of the emo generation we have now where words hurt more then actions. Vader,  Maul,  Palpatine,  and even Dooku were scary because they acted harshly,  without remorse.

Kylo Ren is just a deeply conflicted boy that was seduced by a big bad man,  ie Anakin 2.0 with now even deeper emotional issues.

I'm calling it now: Episode 9 he will pull a full circle Vader and kill Snoke himself,  but this time the anti hero survives.
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The Dark Side is Strong

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snoke better not actually be that big
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MasterArkaine

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Senko

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I repeat . . . EMO BOY.

Still I can sort of see him dueling Finn he's bleeding, hurt and probably convinced of his own superiority. He could well have chosen to go with the lightsabre because he was convinced he could kick Finn's butt without resorting to the force use. I can see swinging a sabre around where the only weight is the blade against an untrained trooper who's run every time he got into trouble being the better option than trying to focus through the pain and lightheadedness of a major wound to use the force against him.

Plus it seems like most Jedi/Sith use either the force or the saber never both at once except in an "enhance attribute" manner I mean seriously you get into a blade lock just reach out with the force and flick. . . that . . . switch. BZZZZOOPP "MY blad. . . ." THUD.

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I really wish han didn't die

I really don't want to see any of these new characters.  F*** them.   Finn and ray can all go die.  I just want to see han & chewie & luke
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MasterArkaine

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I really wish han didn't die

I really don't want to see any of these new characters.  F*** them.   Finn and ray can all go die.  I just want to see han & chewie & luke

Well the escalated quickly. Harrison Ford has been looking for an out from the franchise for decades now. They paid him $20 million plus box office bonuses (he'll double his money if it makes $1.5 billion). It was all about the money for him, and the still had the drag him back. Add the accidents he had on set,  and the man had the worst time filming the movie.

For context, Daisy and John, who played Rey and Finn,  made $466k each with no bonuses.

Chewie and Luke will probably have far greater parts in Episodes 8 & 9.
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I'm glad Han's gone.  Maybe not as harshly as that sounds but Han was a pretty significant part of this movie and if Harrison Ford really wasn't into the role then he got a massive send off because of it.  I don't doubt he helped sell tickets but as far as a story goes I'm not sure there was a lot left for Han to do.  Even if he is supposed to be part of redeeming his son he can do that as well from the dead as if he were alive.

I don't know what he was paid but I'm thinking Mark Hamill could have been the most overpaid character.  We all know that Luke is HUGE but I'm thinking there were extras in the film who had almost as much screen time and everyone who spoke a line out did him there.  I hate to diminish his importance to the franchise but as far as the movie goes he could have been gone without losing much.
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MasterArkaine

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I don't know what he was paid but I'm thinking Mark Hamill could have been the most overpaid character.  We all know that Luke is HUGE but I'm thinking there were extras in the film who had almost as much screen time and everyone who spoke a line out did him there.  I hate to diminish his importance to the franchise but as far as the movie goes he could have been gone without losing much.

Hard to give screen time to someone that your searching for the either movie. He probably made dirt compared to Harrison.
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Jorundr Hrafnsson

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There were a lot of little niggling things that bugged me about this movie.  I enjoyed watching it, but I'm just going to lay out a few things that are sticking for me.

1.  Getting this out of the way quickly, because I'm a HEMA geek:  The crossguard saber is NOT an impractical design, but Kylo's insistence on not using it to his advantage was totally stupid.  You have to know a little about longsword fighting to know this, but an amateur who knew how to use the crossguard could have ended Rey or Finn in the opening exchange and several times after.  My wife felt the same way.  You have a crossguard, use it.  Maybe he was holding back with Rey since he knows they're cousins?

2.  The political situation between the Republic-Resistance-First Order:  This wasn't clear to me from what I saw in the movie.  After thinking about it, it seems the Republic and First Order are in some sort of cold war; and the Resistance is a sort of "mujahadeen" fighting against the First Order with covert Republic assistance in a sort of proxy war?  What the hell is going on here?

3.  Another death star?  Really?  Why aren't the important bits deeper within the planet?  It feels like this is just a reboot more than a sequel.  If that's the case, it is barely excuseable, but so be it.  No emotional buildup (like in Ep4) or payoff in the destruction of an entire star system.

4.  Kylo Ren is too emo.  As I said earlier, this guy is not terrifying or scary.  Just like the prequels ruined Darth Vader for me, by turning the guy under the mask into a little b*tch; let's just say Kylo is following Vader's footsteps in more ways than one.  What I could see them doing which could salvage him is if they really play up the conflicted basketcase angle.  If he descended into a Joker-like mix of competence, ruthlessness, and insanity, he could be absolutely terrifying.  Still, he had his moments in the film where he stood out as a potentially well-conceived character (depending on where he goes).

5.  The First Order rolled over too easily.  Maybe they were caught off guard by the emergence of these new heroes.  To remain credible though, they need to lay an Empire Strikes Back smackdown in the next movie.  The good guys can't win like this again until the end without making the First Order look like a paper tiger.

6.  What does Finn bring to the hero table?  Every character has something extraordinary that they bring to the table except Finn.  Is it virtue? Perspective?  This isn't a negative; I think the series needs the regular guy.  The new Old Republic expansion suffers exactly because everybody is too bad*ss. 

7.  Captain Phasma could have been so awesome.  She could have been The Dragon to Kylo Ren, but like so many other bad guys in this film, she just rolls right over as soon as the plot needed it.

8.  Han's death felt forced.  Everyone knew it was coming when it happened and it seemed like they just shoe-horned it in.

9.  Did anybody feel like Snoke was too...Voldemort?  Also too CGI.  Beasts on the freighter too CGI also.

10.  It feels like a lot of things were cut in the editing stage.  Maybe too much, as the movie just seems disjointed.

11.  Snoke may be Plagueis?

12.  I'm not sure why Kylo kept beating on that boltcaster wound of his.  Maybe he was doing it to numb or help ignore the pain (done that myself);  Or maybe using the pain to psych himself up or draw on the dark side.  Either way, I loved it, but it left questions.

13.  Finn had two of what I like to call "token black guy moments" (one especially) with his dialogue in the beginning half of the movie that took me right out of it.

14.  Hux would have been so much better and believable as an older Tarkin-esque character.

There are other things, but those are the main things.  Thoughts?  Am I off base, or missing something that would make these things make more sense?  Please explain for me if so.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 05:52:30 pm by Jorundr Hrafnsson »
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fairytalejedi

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I repeat . . . EMO BOY.

Still I can sort of see him dueling Finn he's bleeding, hurt and probably convinced of his own superiority. He could well have chosen to go with the lightsabre because he was convinced he could kick Finn's butt without resorting to the force use. I can see swinging a sabre around where the only weight is the blade against an untrained trooper who's run every time he got into trouble being the better option than trying to focus through the pain and lightheadedness of a major wound to use the force against him.

He had no problem focusing enough to Force push Rey 20 feet in the air. It took all Obi-Wan's concentration and effort to do a similarly powerful Force push against Grievous. Kylo Ren did it casually while seriously wounded.

Still, the far bigger problem is that by their own timeline, Ben Solo can have been at most 15 years old when he turned dark and destroyed the Jedi academy. And if Leia waited any time at all before getting pregnant after Endor, then Ben would have been 13 or 14 years old. He was basically Jett Lucas from Episode III, and he slaughtered all his friends. This will probably end up being retconned. They'll push their own timeline back 5 years or so. But hey, Disney only paid $4 billion for this franchise, so there's no reason to take it seriously or anything. ::)

What's sad is that Arcann is so much more interesting and well developed as a character than Kylo Ren. Lucasfilm's A-Team had all the resources in the world to come up with a signature villain for the most anticipated movie of all time, and they couldn't even do as well as the villain from a video game expansion.
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