Author Topic: Starting Level  (Read 229 times)

Maxinyo

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Starting Level
« on: November 10, 2018, 09:26:47 am »
Hey guys, one quick question:

Does the starting level in SWSE have to be 1? Or are there any mechanics so that your character can for example start at level 5?
I mean like the base level of a Jedi or a scoundrel for example.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 09:30:01 am by Maxinyo »

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StevenO

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2018, 11:06:49 am »
You can start at whatever level you(r GM) like building the character up just as if you had started at 1st-level. 

The game DOES NOT have an official mechanic allowing higher level characters more credits to equipment and such which may be what you're really asking.  While amazing equipment can certainly make things easier pretty much every character build out there will do just fine with much more basic equipment that could be purchased/acquired early on.

I have seen a formula for "character wealth by level" but it carries a few very big conditions with it and basically assumes that most of those credits would be tied up into things the PC would NOT be carrying with them like friends, allies, and contacts.  Perhaps the Requisition system in GaW may interest you where it essentially lets a group "borrow" equipment valued at 2000credits/level for mission but it expects that stuff to be returned; if starships are included the value is different.  For a 5th-level start I'd probably give the characters maximum starting credits for 1st-level (depends on what class they are in) and maybe another 3000 credits (doubling starting max for most classes) for a 5th-level start but am unlikely to go any higher than that.
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fairytalejedi

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2018, 01:48:41 pm »
We use the GaW requisition system, which mostly goes into a ship. With my bounded accuracy rules, I've done well with a party of levels 14, 11 and 6.
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MERC_1

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2018, 03:17:43 pm »
Sure, just build your character as a level 1 and give it all the feats, talents and increased abilities granted for leveling up to level 5.

As for starting credits, you could give them whatever you think is reasonable. Or you could look at the suggestion in the FAQ:
Quote
Q11: What are the starting credits for a character above 1st level?

A: As a very loose guideline, your wealth at any given level should be something like this: (level x [level -1]) x 2,000 credits*

* Double this for a noble with the Wealth talent.

This basically assumes that roughly 60% of your total income is spent on upkeep, paying rent, buying food, paying taxes, repairing equipment, getting medical care, etc. (This is a much higher rate than in D&D, where you'd only be expected to "burn" about 10% -- but D&D doesn't have an Imperial Revenue Service.)

For example, at 16th level, it should be somewhere around half a million credits.

The reason I say this is a very loose guideline, though, is that at least half of this wealth would tend to be in a non-liquid form (e.g. property, intangibles such as favors and allies, etc.). As a very rough guideline, having someone owe you a favor (i.e. one-time intervention on your behalf, not to exceed one encounter) is worth about 2,000 x CL; having a long-term ally (i.e. someone who will help you out any time they are available) is worth about 40,000 x CL x (% chance that they're available).

StevenO

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2018, 04:48:02 pm »
Sure, just build your character as a level 1 and give it all the feats, talents and increased abilities granted for leveling up to level 5.

As for starting credits, you could give them whatever you think is reasonable. Or you could look at the suggestion in the FAQ:
Quote
Q11: What are the starting credits for a character above 1st level?

A: As a very loose guideline, your wealth at any given level should be something like this: (level x [level -1]) x 2,000 credits*

* Double this for a noble with the Wealth talent.

This basically assumes that roughly 60% of your total income is spent on upkeep, paying rent, buying food, paying taxes, repairing equipment, getting medical care, etc. (This is a much higher rate than in D&D, where you'd only be expected to "burn" about 10% -- but D&D doesn't have an Imperial Revenue Service.)

For example, at 16th level, it should be somewhere around half a million credits.

The reason I say this is a very loose guideline, though, is that at least half of this wealth would tend to be in a non-liquid form (e.g. property, intangibles such as favors and allies, etc.). As a very rough guideline, having someone owe you a favor (i.e. one-time intervention on your behalf, not to exceed one encounter) is worth about 2,000 x CL; having a long-term ally (i.e. someone who will help you out any time they are available) is worth about 40,000 x CL x (% chance that they're available).

I know that suggestion and I think there are just so many problems with.  Perhaps the biggest being that the last paragraph often gets ignored.  I'd say the other problem I have with it is the over generalization of the Wealth talent which is all or nothing and doesn't give woot when it was gained and how much extra it actually provides.  Thay hypothetical 16th level character pops a level in Noble and picks up Wealth and now he thinks he gets to double his credits despite the talent only providing 5000 credits/level he's had it so it has given him 5,000-80,000 credits TOTAL depending on if it was taken at 1st or 16th-level.
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MERC_1

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2018, 05:28:21 pm »
I actually agree with you on this one StevenO. That is why I said to look at this suggestion. It probably works fine for a party starting out st 5th level though, IF the GM helps the players spend at least 50% of those credits!

A 5th level PC gets 5x4x2,000 = 40,000 credits.

So, lets say the GM want the PC to start with a ship. If there is 4 players he gives the players a ship for 200,000 credits, but they get a dept of 100,000 to a crime boss. They get 10,000 credits to buy equipment per player and 5,000 credits each is in cash or trade goods. Now they have to make the money for the first payment to the "Boss" as the clock is ticking. Oh, they can't sell the ship, as everyone in the sector knows that the "Boss" holds a marker on the ship...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 05:32:54 pm by MERC_1 »

StevenO

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2018, 05:52:39 pm »
I actually agree with you on this one StevenO. That is why I said to look at this suggestion. It probably works fine for a party starting out st 5th level though, IF the GM helps the players spend at least 50% of those credits!

A 5th level PC gets 5x4x2,000 = 40,000 credits.

So, lets say the GM want the PC to start with a ship. If there is 4 players he gives the players a ship for 200,000 credits, but they get a dept of 100,000 to a crime boss. They get 10,000 credits to buy equipment per player and 5,000 credits each is in cash or trade goods. Now they have to make the money for the first payment to the "Boss" as the clock is ticking. Oh, they can't sell the ship, as everyone in the sector knows that the "Boss" holds a marker on the ship...

I just look at this and then look at the requisition system in GaW and this scares me especially if that part about allied and such gets ignored.  Now the requisitioned equipment isn't supposed to entirely replace personal gear (which IS supposed to be greatly reduced from what could be called standard) but it's basis was 2000 credits/level although the highest "ranked" character in the group could get them more stuff.  If the PCs are using starships then the starship value (using used costs) is 10,000 credits x total number of level (+ rank bonus) although it reduces other stuff down to just 500 credits/level.

I'm always a bit worried about giving PCs free reign with starships at lower levels granted 5th-level is starting to move away from that and into what I'd consider mid-level.   I would say that 200,000 credits should get you one hell of a starship as most player worth ships are half that much or even much less when "used."
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MERC_1

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2018, 07:16:36 pm »
The idea is that IF the GM decides to use this system, he can decide what is done with the money. He can hand out friends and favors that may explain why the PCs are hanging out, travelling the galaxy. He can decide how much they can spend on equipment and how much that equipment costs.

You want a blaster rifle? You know that it is military grade equipment right? That will cost you 1,000 credits and 400 credits for the paperwork!

If the GM choose a new ship for 200,000 credits it will be fine, especially if there are strings attached. If the players get 200,000 credits to buy a ship and upgrade it, it will not be good... That would just let them arm themselves with ridiculous weapons!

If you don't want the players to start out with a ship, give them an ally instead. A level 10 ally that is available 20% of the time, that is worth 80,000 credits. This ally is not likely to come in guns blazing. He will show up every now or then with advise, loaning out some equipment, giving help with connections. Give them access to a small house or an apparent, worth maybe 50,000 credits. A speeder worth 10,000, a droid for 5,000 and 10,000 to buy equipment for all 4 of them.  That would leave 5,000 in cash.

You are the GM, so if you grant extra resources to the heroes, you can make up the rules for how much they can spend. You can decide about allies, favors and vehicles and such. The wealth by level is just a recommendation. Use it to make sure the players have the things that the campaign will circle around. Remember that an ally that help the players will expect them to help him as well.

EDIT: Fixed spelling. My phone didn't help much.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 04:59:27 pm by MERC_1 »

Maxinyo

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 01:28:54 pm »
Good, thanks for the help guys!

StevenO

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 04:21:15 pm »
Good, thanks for the help guys!

Glad you're finding it helpful.

In short you probably should make sure your PCs have the credits and other support they NEED but you don't need to give them everything including some specific number of credits that they'd probably try figuring out how to spend most optimally.  Unlike DnD (3.5 anyway) a character's "wealth" is not hard baked into the system.
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MERC_1

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 05:32:51 pm »
I know that suggestion and I think there are just so many problems with.  Perhaps the biggest being that the last paragraph often gets ignored.  I'd say the other problem I have with it is the over generalization of the Wealth talent which is all or nothing and doesn't give woot when it was gained and how much extra it actually provides.  Thay hypothetical 16th level character pops a level in Noble and picks up Wealth and now he thinks he gets to double his credits despite the talent only providing 5000 credits/level he's had it so it has given him 5,000-80,000 credits TOTAL depending on if it was taken at 1st or 16th-level.
I agree with those two problems, especially the one about the Wealth talent. The best fix for wealth is to just add whatever that talent would grant on top of what you get, don't double anything. For the second paragraph, yes a minimum of 50% should be spent on contacts, a ship, favors, a safehouse or be tied up in investments or something else that you are not supposed to sell or trade.

I'm always a bit worried about giving PCs free reign with starships at lower levels granted 5th-level is starting to move away from that and into what I'd consider mid-level.   I would say that 200,000 credits should get you one hell of a starship as most player worth ships are half that much or even much less when "used."
Yes, a starship is sometimes is not a good idea. In some campaigns they are a hassle for the GM if the players use the ship to go across the galaxy at the first sign of trouble. That can actually derail an entire campaign! At other times, the players are jumping around from port to port, trading and getting themselves into trouble. This can actually be a basis for a campaign.

Anyway, I agree that 200,000 is a lot for a ship. But if it is spent on a transport and maybe some GM approved upgrades it could be fine. In my example above I choose to go with a big number, just to exemplify how you can hand something out with strings attached as a way get some control on the players actions. An expensive ship and a big debt, that let you as a GM have the local Crimelord set up some ground rules. You can't leave the sector and you can't sell the ship, not until you have payed of the Crimelord at least. If you do so anyway, he will send bounty hunters after you all!

As for a ship, I was thinking about the Citadel-class Cruiser, ILH-KK. This is an expensive ship at 205,000 credits.

StevenO

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2018, 05:44:06 pm »
Merc, at least your 200,000 credits for a ship is probably on the high end of what your average group should expect free reign on.

I know back in the day I saw someone asking how to spend a MILLION credits tricking out a ship for the party.  Now THAT is a really crazy number when people were throwing all kinds of expensive suggestions.  I know my thought was simply get TWO ships for that; one could be a very nicely equipped YT-2000 or 2400 for your everyday sort of things and the other could be a tricked out Skipray Blastboat if you were looking at something to fight with.  I believe that with the party size suggested they could have easily fielded both ships at the same time.
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MERC_1

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Re: Starting Level
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 02:57:55 pm »
Merc, at least your 200,000 credits for a ship is probably on the high end of what your average group should expect free reign on.
Yes, I totally agree. When you players start to blast their way through every encounter, then you have given them too much weapons or too strong a ship. I think that a 25,000 credit used ship is plenty for most groups. Of course, I expect them to upgrade, overhaul and modify their ship when they get the cash, parts and time to do so. I believe there should be a way to repair a used ship so that it is as good as new, loosing the "used" condition. Of course, this should not be cheap. It should probably cost as much as the difference between a used and a new ship of that type, but you should be able to do it.

I was mostly trying to showcase how you can use debt to tie the players down a bit. Make them stay in a sector or part of space, so that they don't run away from your campaign. A strong ship may actually make the players work better together, as the fear of losing the ship will have them work together. Even though it actually is not used that much, expect to get from place to place, it will still tie them together. Now if you let their ship save them now and then, so much the better.

I know back in the day I saw someone asking how to spend a MILLION credits tricking out a ship for the party.  Now THAT is a really crazy number when people were throwing all kinds of expensive suggestions.  I know my thought was simply get TWO ships for that; one could be a very nicely equipped YT-2000 or 2400 for your everyday sort of things and the other could be a tricked out Skipray Blastboat if you were looking at something to fight with.  I believe that with the party size suggested they could have easily fielded both ships at the same time.
A million credits to spend on a single ship is a bit crazy, at least for most groups. At high levels it may be possible, but I believe that it should be possible, but even then it should be rare. And how many actually play SAGA at such high level anyway? At levels below 12 or so, a ship like that may actually break the game a bit!