Author Topic: Saga 2.0? (Read 1670 times)

StevenO · « **Reply #75 on:** January 04, 2014, 05:24:11 pm »

It IS possible to learn new languages in SWSE. It just take a decent INT score (or at least an increasing one) and perhaps the Linguist feat. Now what I like either but it's what there is unless you're a droid with access to those translator units.

I know I don't like the "all or nothing" approach of SWSE when it comes to languages barring those Improvised Communications (FUCG?) that SS mentions. While I'll acknowledge that the known languages is SAGA should represent understanding in that language I'm sure there are variations of a given language that can make communication difficult. There are also some things that various languages share which can make it much easier to understand an unknown language because you happen to know something similar. I sometimes wonder if there shouldn't be an INT base table to determine your language proficiency:

DC 5: Understand your native language based on background/homeworld (two people may know same language but use it differently, this is specific to you)

DC 10: Understand other versions of your proficient language (in the real world this is what you use to understand something like English whether spoken by a Southerner, New Yorker, Brit, Aussie and some of the other variations/accent you are not normally familiar with)

DC 15: Understand a language related to one you know. (These are languages that have things in common with your languages such as base languages. In the real world these could be languages that have strong ties to Latin like Spanish and Italian.)

DC 20: A language you may have heard and seen used but have no real familiarity with.

DC 25: Unknown language. A first contact situation.

Normal language proficiencies allow you to make up to DC 10 INT checks (you can "take 10" on these checks in most situations making them automatic) but I'd add a "Linguistic Expert" feat with Linguist and five known languages as prereqs that will let you attempt INT checks for the higher difficulties. An expansion on the feat tree would lower the difficulties.

Lord_Inar · « **Reply #76 on:** January 20, 2014, 02:51:05 pm »

Coming late to the party, but the only class disparity we seem to see with classes is at first level. Jedi, Soldier and Diplomat are FAR superior to Scout and Scoundrel, to the point where we've joked that Scout and Scoundrel are prestige classes you can take at 2nd level. Is there something we're missing?

Also, to throw in my 2c, the ONE thing I would really want to see in an update is better starship creation rules.
Starting by modifying an existing ship is just a bit of a pain.

StevenO · « **Reply #77 on:** January 20, 2014, 03:33:07 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Inar on January 20, 2014, 02:51:05 pm

Coming late to the party, but the only class disparity we seem to see with classes is at first level. Jedi, Soldier and Diplomat are FAR superior to Scout and Scoundrel, to the point where we've joked that Scout and Scoundrel are prestige classes you can take at 2nd level. Is there something we're missing?

Also, to throw in my 2c, the ONE thing I would really want to see in an update is better starship creation rules.
Starting by modifying an existing ship is just a bit of a pain.

Diplomat?

If looking at the SWSE rules what you take at 1st-level matters a LOT. Now I do not know how you are grading SAGA's starting classes but I know I disagree with them. To me the top three classes are Noble, Scout, and Soldier with Jedi and Scoundrel trailing behind. Oh, both of those last two classes can be good choices to start in but only in fairly specific applications. Starting in Jedi is good if you want to be a lightsaber wielding Force User with immediate access to Force Powers but not so much access to a wide range of skills. Scoundrel is good if you want a wide range of skills.

SAGA's MODIFICATION rules aren't too bad. I've heard call for better creation rules, and to a big extent even agree especially when determining CL is unknown, but recall reading that it was left out to stop a level of min/maxing. The other problem with creation rules is that then EVERY ship should be built using them and sorry to say many codex ships just couldn't come close.

Lord_Inar · « **Reply #78 on:** January 20, 2014, 03:50:03 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on January 20, 2014, 03:33:07 pm

Diplomat?

I have some sort of brain block that I always call Noble a Diplomat. I do it every... single... time! Sorry about that!
I think we just see Scout as a weak Soldier with two extra skill points, so as I said, there is something we're probably missing.

Jedi is clearly focused on becoming a power Force user, which has obviously been discussed elsewhere as being on the high end of the power spectrum, so the quicker you can get there the better.

StevenO · « **Reply #79 on:** January 20, 2014, 04:28:07 pm »

I can see the error and was hoping for some clarity. The Noble can be so much more although names are just names in the game so any of them are confining to the underinformed.

You may also look at the Scout as a weak Soldier with more skills and in some ways you are right. You can also look at it as a highly skilled field operative or even a spec ops as with those additional skills but, at least when compared to a Soldier, an improved skill list. If you think the Noble is good you can look at the Scout in a similar light except it gives up one trained skill for a lot hitpoints, more weapons, better REF, and basically access to all the skills that the Noble does NOT get access to. In all hone

A character (ab)using UtF early makes it strong and Jedi is the class that can do that the fastest because it give Force Sensitivity as a starting feat. This enables the character to take Force Training at 1st-level instead of 3rd which is often the earliest for other Force User builds but there are some species that allow FS and FT at 1st-level through other classes. By mid-levels (6-9) the starting advantage of Jedi in the UtF department is far less noticeable. Scout is a class I almost never would multiclass into because of its Skills and middle of the line hp; I'll take the hit to hp from a Soldier/Jedi for the additional skills to start Scout. If I multiclass into Noble it is usually from a higher hp class and I am doing it for talent access and not the host of trained skills; starting with 6 trained skills doesn't mean a thing when you enter Noble later.

Scoundrel is definitely the tricky to place class. It has GREAT skill access (it's missing Treat Injury, Survival, and Endurance) so I may start in it if I want to train skills and more than two are not on another class's list. Otherwise I believe it is a very good class to multiclass into. Most characters can use PBS although the talent select is probably what you are after; it also makes all of those skills into class skills to learn them after 1st-level. Many of my "tech" guys actually start in Soldier for the hp/proficiencies and give up one trained skill; when it is time to expand skills Scoundrel is a pretty good choice.

Lord_Inar · « **Reply #80 on:** January 20, 2014, 05:31:09 pm »

I agree with almost everything you said except for not multiclassing into Scout

1 multi-class level of Scout = Evasion = Priceless!

StevenO · « **Reply #81 on:** January 20, 2014, 06:01:24 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Inar on January 20, 2014, 05:31:09 pm

I agree with almost everything you said except for not multiclassing into Scout

1 multi-class level of Scout = Evasion = Priceless!

I was thinking on that a bit more and saw that as one of the few reasons I could come up with for multiclassing into Scout or at least doing it from Soldier or Jedi. It is even better if you are trained in Endurance for some reason and have CON 13+ so you can use Shake It Off. While it can be useful it is far from "Priceless" for two very important reasons. The first is that the level in Scout costs you a point of BAB to get which can be very important as it is a prereq for some PrCs and other things and just because SAGA Defense scores are often pretty high compared to attack values. The second reason is simply that Evasion is a talent that is only as useful as the GM makes it unless you are going to start using "cheese" tactics and willingly subject yourself to area attacks. If the GM doesn't target you with autofire or throw grenades at you Evasion becomes far less useful but then again if that is what the GM feels she must do to cause you any damage because of your high REF score then it is golden.

Evasion, or more precisely the Survivor talent tree, is available through a few other PrCs. Although it requires Stealth trained and a couple talents (commando or camo) I actually like getting it through the full BAB Vanguard PrC.

Now one other reason I guess I can come up with for multi-classing into Scout it if you want (think you need) to get into the Bounty Hunter PrC as Scout is the only heroic class with access to the Survival skill. Also being the first place you could pick up the needed Awareness talents doesn't hurt either but in most cases I'd rather make a Scout3/Soldier4/BH than a Soldier4/Scout3/BH unless I'm REALLY going to into armor of the heavier varieties.

Lord_Inar · « **Reply #82 on:** January 20, 2014, 06:12:28 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on January 20, 2014, 06:01:24 pm

Quote from: Lord_Inar on January 20, 2014, 05:31:09 pm
I agree with almost everything you said except for not multiclassing into Scout

1 multi-class level of Scout = Evasion = Priceless!
I was thinking on that a bit more and saw that as one of the few reasons I could come up with for multiclassing into Scout or at least doing it from Soldier or Jedi. It is even better if you are trained in Endurance for some reason and have CON 13+ so you can use Shake It Off. While it can be useful it is far from "Priceless" for two very important reasons.

We do lots of starship battles as well as ground battles with bombs and such so Evasion gets used quite a bit (and not in a cheesy way, although jumping in front of a bomb is hardly cheesy, especially when your character is built around Harm's Way!

...and I was going to mention Shake it Off as the icing on the multiclass Scout cake!

StevenO · « **Reply #83 on:** January 20, 2014, 06:25:05 pm »

Not sure Evasion would/should work in combination with Harm's Way. As I see it you either can't use HW against an area attack that happens to include the protected or if you can use it things would be treated as if he was hit which will mean full damage to you. I may need to find the errata to see if/what has changed/gotten fixed. Now if you and the protected are caught by the same blast I can see it helping you.

Of course in a starship battle Evasion still applies to the ship you pilot although there aren't too many true "area attacks" in starship combat.

MERC_1 · « **Reply #84 on:** January 20, 2014, 08:07:27 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on January 04, 2014, 05:24:11 pm

I know I don't like the "all or nothing" approach of SWSE when it comes to languages barring those Improvised Communications (FUCG?) that SS mentions. While I'll acknowledge that the known languages is SAGA should represent understanding in that language I'm sure there are variations of a given language that can make communication difficult. There are also some things that various languages share which can make it much easier to understand an unknown language because you happen to know something similar. I sometimes wonder if there shouldn't be an INT base table to determine your language proficiency:

DC 5: Understand your native language based on background/homeworld (two people may know same language but use it differently, this is specific to you)

DC 10: Understand other versions of your proficient language (in the real world this is what you use to understand something like English whether spoken by a Southerner, New Yorker, Brit, Aussie and some of the other variations/accent you are not normally familiar with)

DC 15: Understand a language related to one you know. (These are languages that have things in common with your languages such as base languages. In the real world these could be languages that have strong ties to Latin like Spanish and Italian.)

DC 20: A language you may have heard and seen used but have no real familiarity with.

DC 25: Unknown language. A first contact situation.

Normal language proficiencies allow you to make up to DC 10 INT checks (you can "take 10" on these checks in most situations making them automatic) but I'd add a "Linguistic Expert" feat with Linguist and five known languages as prereqs that will let you attempt INT checks for the higher difficulties. An expansion on the feat tree would lower the difficulties.

While I do agree that there is a bit too much of oversimplification in SAGA sometimes, I don't think that you need to introduce new feats to cover linguistics. We already have the skill Knowledge: Social sciences (Sociology, psychology, philosophy, theology, and
criminology), and linguistics fit in with the rest of those. You could just add a new trained only use of that knowledge skill, as it is not like this skill has too many uses in most games as is... You could add that having the feat Linguist grants a circumstantial bonus when trying to understand a new language, or you could grant a bonus for every language known beyond your first.

For confirmation that linguistics is manly a social science, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_sciences

StevenO · « **Reply #85 on:** January 20, 2014, 10:31:01 pm »

Using Knowledge (Social Sciences) may not be a bad idea for knowing something about a wide variety of languages but throwing it in there does void a portion of what learning languages does. My idea of a Linguistic Expert feat is two fold: one, it offers a chance to learn/know additional languages instead of just taking Linguist again and two, it keeps languages ability based instead of turning it into something skill based. Now you probably can convince me that a high level character may have a better time with strange languages (they got experience somewhere) but if it is too easy it diminished the idea of being trained in a language to begin with.

Lord_Inar · « **Reply #86 on:** January 20, 2014, 10:58:31 pm »

Quote from: StevenO on January 20, 2014, 06:25:05 pm

Not sure Evasion would/should work in combination with Harm's Way.

More concept than implementation really. I'm just getting back into the game after a several year hiatus, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy.
I just remember that at the time Evasion seemed amazing (although maybe it really wasn't!)

richterbelmont10 · « **Reply #87 on:** January 22, 2014, 12:33:08 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Inar on January 20, 2014, 02:51:05 pm

Coming late to the party, but the only class disparity we seem to see with classes is at first level. Jedi, Soldier and Diplomat are FAR superior to Scout and Scoundrel, to the point where we've joked that Scout and Scoundrel are prestige classes you can take at 2nd level. Is there something we're missing?

If you want to be good at certain things like Stealth, starting in Scout or Scoundrel would be the best way to go.

ZehnWaters · « **Reply #88 on:** December 11, 2018, 10:54:51 am »

Did we ever get a PDF for this?

StevenO · « **Reply #89 on:** December 11, 2018, 12:50:32 pm »

Quote from: ZehnWaters on December 11, 2018, 10:54:51 am

Did we ever get a PDF for this?

Not that I ever remember seeing.

It probably shouldn't be too surprising considering how few things seem to draw a consensus of people. The idea of including a SAM seems to be pretty well accepted (I started a topic on that soon after the board began) as an answer to Skill vs. Defense but after that things really start going down hill and in many cases certain suggestions suffer diametric opposition. Of course a SAGA 2.0 might be completely unrecognizable from what SAGA currently is so what I think most looked at is something closer to a SWSE 1.5 but what to change.

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Author Topic: Saga 2.0? (Read 1670 times)

StevenO

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Lord_Inar

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StevenO

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Lord_Inar

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StevenO

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Lord_Inar

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StevenO

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Lord_Inar

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StevenO

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MERC_1

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StevenO

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Lord_Inar

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richterbelmont10

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ZehnWaters

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