Author Topic: Saga 2.0?  (Read 1668 times)

MasterArkaine

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 07:11:59 pm »
I have to admit I had no idea what "Skill Attack Modifier" was until I just Googled it and found this on pukunui's blog on the WizCom as the 1st item. This makes complete since

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« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 07:16:23 pm by MasterArkaine »
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Malancthon

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 07:15:42 pm »
CMJ, how do you feel about My suggestion of having a Holocron Unearthed addendum for your generic HERO class?

I would rather keep the classes as they are, other than tweaking the Jedi class to be a general Force Apprentice, but then adding the HERO class as an option.

What sort of ideas do we have for a third tier non-FU PrC? Things like Supreme Chancellor (noble), General (soldier), and Crime Syndicate Lord (scoundrel) seem like directions to go, or is that too pigeon-holed of concepts?

Arkaine, there is also this thread in the Senate forum that explains SAM.
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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 07:17:34 pm »
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Zilfallion

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2013, 07:38:56 pm »
I would LOVE a starship creation and combat overhaul.

StevenO

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 07:49:52 pm »
As to the class questions, How about creating a single base class, and calling it the Hero Class.

At first level, you choose one of the following

(1)+2 Defense Bonus to any Defense score of your choice, and (1) +1 Bonus to any one Defense score of your choice, or +1 bonus to all three Defense Scores instead.

HERO Base Class
All characters start with Weapon Proficiency (simple weapons) and then choose Four of the following feats: Armor Proficiency (light, medium), Exotic Weapon Proficiency), Force Sensitivity, Linguist, Martial Arts I, Shake it Off, Weapon Proficiency (advanced melee weapons, lightsaber, pistols, rifles)

BAB:  You recieve a 3/4 BAB bonus, unless you have at least 3 weapon proficiency feats.  Martial Arts I reduces this number to 2.

Any Soldier Talent requires you to meet the Full BAB bonus listed above.  Additionally, when you gain bonus feats on even levels, you must also meet this requirement to choose feats from the Soldier List on even levels.
Noble Talent Tree requires Linguist.  You must have Linguist to choose bonus feats from the Noble Class List of feats on even levels.
Scout Talent Tree requires Shake it Off.  Blah Blah for feats
Scoundrel Talent Tree requires Weapon Proficiency (pistols).  Blah bah for feats
Jedi Talents become basic force Talents.  Blah blah for fea...

Boom.  The merger of all base classes into one, without creating a crazy imbalance and preserves the good class mechanical concept Saga had.  A similar thing could be done with PrC, perhaps having each talent tree require the PrC basic entry requirements, and merging the PrC.  Essentially, you would create a Heroic 1st Tier Class, a Heroic 2nd Tier Class, and a Heroic 3rd Tier Class. 

By requiring each talent tree of each PrC to require the PrC in question's requirements, it enables one to keep the well defined mechanical balance to Saga's class system, but remove the confines of it.

Also, haven't decided what to do with skills.   Certainly open to suggestion there, and on all areas of this.
As to the class questions, How about creating a single base class, and calling it the Hero Class.

At first level, you choose one of the following

(1)+2 Defense Bonus to any Defense score of your choice, and (1) +1 Bonus to any one Defense score of your choice, or +1 bonus to all three Defense Scores instead.


HERO Base Class
All characters start with Weapon Proficiency (simple weapons) and then choose Four of the following feats: Armor Proficiency (light, medium), Exotic Weapon Proficiency), Force Sensitivity, Linguist, Martial Arts I, Shake it Off, Weapon Proficiency (advanced melee weapons, lightsaber, pistols, rifles)

BAB:  You recieve a 3/4 BAB bonus, unless you have at least 3 weapon proficiency feats.  Martial Arts I reduces this number to 2.

Any Soldier Talent requires you to meet the Full BAB bonus listed above.  Additionally, when you gain bonus feats on even levels, you must also meet this requirement to choose feats from the Soldier List on even levels.
Noble Talent Tree requires Linguist.  You must have Linguist to choose bonus feats from the Noble Class List of feats on even levels.
Scout Talent Tree requires Shake it Off.  Blah Blah for feats
Scoundrel Talent Tree requires Weapon Proficiency (pistols).  Blah bah for feats
Jedi Talents become basic force Talents.  Blah blah for fea...

Boom.  The merger of all base classes into one, without creating a crazy imbalance and preserves the good class mechanical concept Saga had.  A similar thing could be done with PrC, perhaps having each talent tree require the PrC basic entry requirements, and merging the PrC.  Essentially, you would create a Heroic 1st Tier Class, a Heroic 2nd Tier Class, and a Heroic 3rd Tier Class. 

By requiring each talent tree of each PrC to require the PrC in question's requirements, it enables one to keep the well defined mechanical balance to Saga's class system, but remove the confines of it.

Also, haven't decided what to do with skills.   Certainly open to suggestion there, and on all areas of this.
I've seen suggestions like this before but I believe it has problems to go along with any promise it may hold. 

I don't see any mention of hit points in there.  This leads to the same kind of issue you are running into with skills.

I'll point out that not every Noble qualifies for Linguist leaving so those talents would be unreachable.  This is even more true for Shake It Off and the Scout; I'd bet half the characters I make using Scout or more fail to qualify for Shake It Off because I want to put my skills into things other than Endurance and/or because I want to invest ability points into something other than CON 14.  It also seems like just adding another feat here or there opens up new talent lists.

In all honesty, aside from a few bad eggs I think SAGA's handling of classes is one of its BEST features.  With only five base classes each of them can be used for a certain niche without being stepping all over each other in other areas.  I make them a little more flexible but I would certainly NOT move away from them overall.

Now Starship/Vehicle combat is an area that could be improved but I believe a lot of that has to do with reworking how things get done.  One thing I LIKE about SWSE's starship combat is that is works like character scale combat.  What I would want to avoid like the plague is a vehicle combat system that is completely different from the way character combat works.  Aside from the "what do we do?" issue with vehicles I'm afraid may GMs just don't put as much effort into the starship ENVIRONMENT as the do in character scale and thus vehicle combat becomes BORING.

I have wondered about a "3rd-tier" PRC for non-Force Users but you really couldn't keep a Force User out and what do you think you'd offer?  I mean what's a Jedi Master really get?  The +3 defense scores are lower than the +4 you can get from normal PrCs.  One more FP is nice but usually not game breaking.

As for the SAM, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN MASTER ARKAINE?  It is something that has been mentioned in almost every discussion on skill checks vs. defense scores since I coined the term.  I even made sure I posted in on these forums with SAM/Skill Attack Modifier in the title so hopefully people could find it.
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MasterArkaine

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 08:08:56 pm »
As for the SAM, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN MASTER ARKAINE?  It is something that has been mentioned in almost every discussion on skill checks vs. defense scores since I coined the term.  I even made sure I posted in on these forums with SAM/Skill Attack Modifier in the title so hopefully people could find it.

I've seen the term "SAM" be made a billion times, but never seen a full explaination on it until today. Yes, I that bad sometimes
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Chainmail Jedi

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 08:12:14 pm »
I don't see eye to eye with you StevenO on most of the issues you present, but I do concede Skills and Hit Point Die.  I understand that certain things become more limited with the way I have presented them, but they still leave those old options possible and the potential extra feat makes up for those restrictions.  Additionally, if Skill Training was added to starting feats it make it a little easier.

Maybe I need to think outside of the Class system to solve this one... What if the number of trained class skills you have is independent from class, but relies completely on Intelligence.  This would also diminish Intelligence's role as a dump stat.  It also makes sense.  A dumb Scoundrel is an unskilled one.  Likewise, a smart soldier is a skilled one.

My problem is, I don't see an easy way to do this...perhaps class skills will equal 6 if INT is your highest scoure, 5 If it is your second Highest Score, Four if it is third highest score, three if it is your fourth highest score, two if it is your fifth highest score, and one if it is your lowest score.

Likewise, with HitPoint Die, I don't have a clue.  It couldn't hurt to give everyone a d10

Malancthon

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 08:25:32 pm »
What if choosing a HD and Skills were connected?

d6 HP = 6 skills
d8 HD= 4 Skills
d10 HD= 2 Skills

In practice regarding Nobles with Linquist and Scouts with Shake it off, I agree with StevenO. Most of the time the characters I create don't gain those bonus feats because their stats are prioritized elsewhere.
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Chainmail Jedi

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 08:30:32 pm »
I think that's a playstyle thing then.  In my games, we often dip into those classes just to get those feats.  Shake it Off is awesome, and Linguist Never hurts.

I like HP die correlating to that skills Idea. 

OR perhaps using the CON Score for HP die?

IF CON is your HIGHEST-SECOND HIGHEST score, d10, Third Highest-Fourth Highest, d8, Fifth-Last, d6

I am for either one, tbh.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:35:32 pm by Chainmail Jedi »

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2013, 08:48:19 pm »
CMJ it looks like instead of bettering the system you just want to rewrite the system. In that instance you have proven thet this is not the system for you to get your StarWars jollies...I don't intend to sound offensive just speaking my mind.

OTOH I have been wanting to try another way of dealing with the skills vs. defenses problem that doesn't have you adding something else to be memoriaed/remebered or another spot needed on the sheet(SAM I'm looking at you). Basically just redo Skill Focus to give the character their lvl as a bonus to skills, not 1/2 a lvl. No it won't cap, therefore giving a boost to skills when they get used against defenses.

As for the discussion on class, skills, hp, etc.; I'm not touching that.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:54:21 pm by Jarveiyan »

richterbelmont10

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2013, 11:16:17 pm »
One major thing that I would change in a Saga 2.0 is this: completely getting rid of condition track.

I know this idea will probably come as a shock to people, but there it is. As GM, I hate keeping track of the CT of all my NPC's. It's such a hassle. I have a hard enough time keeping track of everyone's Initiative order, hp, swift actions, reactions, DR, recover actions, damage threshold, Shield Rating, Force powers, once-per-encounter abilities, attack modifying feats & talents, defense-modifying feats & talents, Force points, second winds, and on and on, it never ends. It's incredibly overwhelming, especially when you have 8 or more NPC's, which means you have to keep track of 8 or more CT's, knowing where they are on the CT, modifying their penalites on every defense score, attack roll, and skill check, and keeping track of how many recover actions they have taken before moving up the CT. I also find it annoying to have to check the damage threshold every single time someone takes damage to see if it's exceeded. It slows down combat too much and it's not worth the benefits in my opinion.

The CT started out as something wonderful and elegant, a way to streamline things so that you don't have all the conditions like "stunned" or "frightened". But somehow it ended getting unwieldy and bulky, with so many things that got stacked on top of it like feats, talents, damage threshold, and so on.

Anyway, to make the changes, I would convert CT damage to hit points damage or re-introduce the ability score damage from D&D (for poisons). If that's not feasable, then get rid of the feat/talent completely. As for stun damage, I would just leave that as the same damage as regular damage, the only difference is that if you reduce your opponent to 0 hp, he is not in danger of dying.

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2013, 11:26:15 pm »
I think that's a playstyle thing then.  In my games, we often dip into those classes just to get those feats.  Shake it Off is awesome, and Linguist Never hurts.

I like HP die correlating to that skills Idea. 

OR perhaps using the CON Score for HP die?

IF CON is your HIGHEST-SECOND HIGHEST score, d10, Third Highest-Fourth Highest, d8, Fifth-Last, d6

I am for either one, tbh.

This brings in other MAJOR stumbling points as well.

Linguist may never "hurt" but it is rarely a primary reason for selecting Noble; when starting in Noble I may go with a lower INT score because my concept wants access to the talents from Noble but because that class already starts with SIX trained skills (seven if I'm human) I don't feel the need to put a great score into INT.  If you happen to have the CON score and for some reason train in Endurance then getting SIO is nice but it is far from a given.

Tying the number of skill points or the HD size to where you put an ability score also goes AGAINST some of the great things about SAGA.  As I mentioned with Noble I don't always feel like dropping a big score into INT because the class already may provide me with the trained skill that I needed without those extra.  When it comes to HD I'm far more worried about CON for my Noble/Scoundrel/Scout than I am for my Jedi or especially my Soldier; starting with 30 hp instead of 24 or 18 provides a pretty nice cushion which lets those d10 classes get away with having a LOWER CON score than those that start with a d6 or d8.

As for INT being a "dump stat" in SAGA I generally disagree with that as having trained skill can be important.  If having the skills is not valuable I believe there is a problem with how the game is being run.

@Jarveiyan:  There have been many suggestions on how to "fix" Skill Focus but I'm not sure any of them are any more elegant than the SAM.  I mean if you still get the +5 bonus from just having a skill trained that already makes skill check vs. defense score extremely effective at low levels or when used against non-heroics so nerfing skill focus doesn't change much.  Being able to take skill focus early is also what can make truly competent characters at low levels; if a challenging task is DC 20 having training and focus in the needed skill will actually let a 1st-level character "do its job" simply by using "take 10" to hit that DC 20.  DC 25 is still pretty challenging to be consistent at as it takes several levels and perhaps an ability bonus or some other help to always hit it.
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StevenO

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2013, 11:36:12 pm »
One major thing that I would change in a Saga 2.0 is this: completely getting rid of condition track.
...
Anyway, to make the changes, I would convert CT damage to hit points damage or re-introduce the ability score damage from D&D (for poisons). If that's not feasable, then get rid of the feat/talent completely. As for stun damage, I would just leave that as the same damage as regular damage, the only difference is that if you reduce your opponent to 0 hp, he is not in danger of dying.
I like the CT but I can certainly get behind ability score "damage" for poisons and diseases and such.  Those things seem like they should have differing long term effects instead of all of them doing the same thing.

I can see where tracking the CT for many NPCs can weigh on a GM but here I think going with more "mook" characters who can't take more than two DT level hits is a good way to go.  Of course you may want to have a MAJOR rewrite on how to play and create NPCs in the first place (see 4e) that is different from how PCs are created.

I know one thing I would have liked to see in SAGA is some kind of guideline to assigning CL to vehicles and starships.  I may also say a uniform pricing system but that would be hard to do with starships.
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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2013, 04:09:27 am »
what I proposed is far from re-imagining the system Jarveiyan.  This would function nearly identically to the way Saga currently does.  The Old Foundation and function of the 5 base classes is still there, without it being an over confining element.


All one needs to do it to solve StevenO and Mal's problems are change the requirements to take Noble/Scout Talents and Bonus Feats, and I am certainly open to suggestions. 

The SAM is by far the best solution to Skill Attacks presented thus far, changing SF doesn't solve the problem unless you do something with that +5 bonus from training in the skill.  SAM does both.

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Re: Saga 2.0?
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 01:54:25 pm »
Been giving this some more thought, and I like Malacanthon's idea alot.  Number of trained Skills correlates to HP die

D10 - 2 skills

D8 - 4 skills

D6 - 6 skills

I think that's a brilliant way preserve the class functions while removing their constrictions.

What this leaves us left to deal with is what to make the requirements of Scout and Noble talents.
And as I re-read this thread, maybe something should be done to the condition track, as RB10 says.  Perhaps we need to be looking at what kind of a role CT-Killers play in the balance of the combat system before we do something as drastic as removing the CT from the game.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 02:27:21 pm by Chainmail Jedi »