Author Topic: Are you okay with the Jedi class?  (Read 1763 times)

CCCXLII

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Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« on: April 16, 2015, 09:41:38 pm »
SECR Only.

I don't have much experience with Saga Edition because I've only ever played in two games. Yet for some reason, and especially as of recent, the Jedi class bothers me. I can't even look at it without squirming in my seat. I want to tweak and change it and I'm not exactly sure as of why or if I should. It's hard to articulate, and I'll do my best in a later post, but until then, I have two questions for the forum:

1. Is there anything about the Jedi class that bothers you? (Maybe you can put it to words better than I can?)
For example, it's common for GMs to allow their players to start as a 1st-Level Jedi without taking Force Sensitivity or the free Lightsaber and its Weapon proficiency feat. Maybe you think there should have been a more diverse set of options?

2. Why is the Jedi class important? (Why should the Jedi class be in the game?)
Why not put the Lightsaber Combat Talent Tree under "Weapon proficiency (lightsabers)" and let characters with the feat take talents from it? Why not take the Jedi Consular/Guardian/Sentinel Talent Trees and make them Tradition and Force Talents?

I'm not saying we should throw out the class and the book along with it, but I'd really like to see some thoughtful discussion on this.

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illslim2

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 09:51:15 pm »
SECR Only.
1. Is there anything about the Jedi class that bothers you? (Maybe you can put it to words better than I can?)
For example, it's common for GMs to allow their players to start as a 1st-Level Jedi without taking Force Sensitivity or the free Lightsaber and its Weapon proficiency feat. Maybe you think there should have been a more diverse set of options?

I have a couple of issues but not the ones you have I guess. And yes people/GM's have let starting Feats be traded out for reasonable alternatives.

2. Why is the Jedi class important? (Why should the Jedi class be in the game?)
Why not put the Lightsaber Combat Talent Tree under "Weapon proficiency (lightsabers)" and let characters with the feat take talents from it? Why not take the Jedi Consular/Guardian/Sentinel Talent Trees and make them Tradition and Force Talents?

"Why should the Jedi class be in the game?"
I think it should have been called something different. But the very least I change the wording on page 35 for the definition of Jedi so as to not confuse new players.

The rest of these questions I either do not know what you are getting at or the last part of it I think that is an interesting idea with the Talent Trees under a Tradition.
I think they did it this way to make it easier to be able to justify building just about any concept and it not being locked into a specific name or tradition.

I have beefs with massive amount of Feats and Talents that no one ever chooses.
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StevenO

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 10:25:31 pm »
Seeing how the Jedi class is supposed to be used to represent a wide range of Force User I am a little disappointed that WP-Lightsaber (and Simple) is built in as a starting feat.  In my house rules I'll allow a character starting in Jedi to swap out WP - Lightsaber for one of the following: Advanced Melee, specific Exotic (GM's determination if appropriate), Pistol, or Martial Arts I.  For many other things if a person is trying to build a "Jedi" I'll simply suggest starting in a different class taking Force Sensitivity at 1st-level and then multiclassing into Jedi to pick up WP (lightsaber).

As for why the Jedi class is in the game the biggest reason is probably that it needs to be to make a lot of fanboys (and girls) happy as they would be extremely disappointed with no Jedi class even if there is a perfectly good Force Using Lightsaber wielder class available.  As for talents I don't know why you'd ever want to move them to different classes; if you have an issue taking levels in a full BAB class with a d10 HD to get those talents they I think you have a problem. 

When you ask why the Jedi class is important you really need to ask "why would I start a character in Jedi?"  To me the answer to that is that you want to play a tough character who has access to Force Powers and skills with a Lightsaber right out of the gate.  When I mentioned my house rule for substituting starting weapon proficiencies I also have some that could apply to starting in a different class but getting the Lightsaber although it still means buying Force Sensitivity the old fashioned way; it may be expensive but I'd allow a Soldier or Scout to trade both WP - Pistol AND Rifle to get WP -Lightsaber instead although a Soldier could trade in WP - Rifle and both Armor proficiencies to get the Lightsaber instead.  The Lightsaber could then be traded as mentioned earlier although trading WP -Rifle could get WP - AM without going through through Lightsaber first.

It can really help if you can look at the classes, along with feats and talents, without tying their specific names to notions of what that actually means.  When looking at character concepts I also encourage you to look at filling a concept as something that could take a few levels; sure some concepts can be instantly recognized but many more become apparent once a character has 3-4 levels.  If I want to build a "Jedi Consular" I'm probably going to start as a Force Sensitive Noble (or maybe even Scoundrel) before multiclassing into Jedi for features from that class.  A sneaky Jedi probably starts in Scout although Scoundrel is again an option.  To me a lot of concepts can have a 1/3 class split at 4th-level as it opens a lot more doors that forcing your concept into a strait single class.
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mudtop

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 11:57:40 am »
I believe the Jedi class was put in for 2 reasons.
     1) like StevenO said, to make the fanboys happy.
     2) at the start I believe the only Force-user they wanted you to make where Jedi. Dark side builds where really discouraged with the whole if your PC goes dark side they become a NPC. I think they did this not only to make making the class easier but to make it easier for beginners as well.
      I think now though with the large amount of force traditions that are out you could create some house rules. Make the Jedi class a "Force-Sensitive" class starting feats: Force Sensitive, Force Tradition member. The "Force Tradition member"  feat lets you join a Force Tradition (but is not a class bonus feat) and based on your choice you get additional starting feats. e.g. Force Tradition (Jedi)- standard  WP(lightsaber,simple) also unlocks talent tress: Jedi Guardian/Consular/Sentinel (also a preruq for the Jedi Knight or Master PrCs) or  Force Tradition (Blazing Chain) grants- WP (pistol) talent tress: Blazing Chain, Misfourtune, Spacer. You could mix up the class skills and adjust BAB aswell. This not only would make the new "Force-Sensitive" class make more sense post all the released books, but it would really open up how fast you could build varied force users. I always felt that the Jedi just weren't that good to start in and this would make the "Force Sensitive" class much more attractive.
    To me at lest a system like this makes a lot more sense but I could see how it would be over whelming for a beginner "Here is a couple of dozen combinations [in reference to what kind of force tradition/user you will be] to choice from, pick one now and hope you like it 5 levels later." Wouldn't go down to well for a beginner.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 12:15:11 pm by mudtop »
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MERC_1

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 05:44:41 pm »
The thing with the Jedi class is the name, as most jedi will take levels in the class but not everyone taking those levels will be a jedi. This is the basic class for force users, so Force Sensitivity should be part of the class. If you want to play a character with some jedi training that is not force sensitive, you obviously start in another class and multi-class in to jedi later if you need to. Not every forceuser use a lightsaber, so this class may not be the best to start in unless you are playing such a concept.

The Jedi (or general force user class) is important as a repository for lots of force related talents. Many of those talents are not only useful for jedi, but other forceusers and even caharcters not using the force should have access. So to put them all in one tradition would not be faire to the other traditions that have about 5 talents or so.

The Jedi Knight PrC is actually a bigger problem, as many talents should work well for non-jedi. But as only members of the jedi tradition can get in, others are excluded from having access to (most of) those talents. Membership to an organisation is a requirement that some (many?) GM would ignore if the see it as reasonable.

There are many things that they could have done better when making this game, but when you play you only change smal things to make it run smoothly. When you make big changes things easily start to fall apart, and you may have to change mor things on the fly for the game to work properly.


StevenO

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2015, 07:35:23 pm »
I'll second seeing the Jedi Knight PrC as being a bigger problem than the actual Jedi class.  It is clearly the 'martial' Force User's PrC yet it is officially only available to "members of the Jedi Tradition" despite fitting a large number of traditions.  The JK's talent selection also grows with just about every book and several of those trees really should be available to a much wider selection of characters or at least available to certain other PrCs.

Merc mentions ignoring certain "special" requirements when it comes to PrCs and I believe Jedi Knight is a class to really take that to heart with.  I also put some of the talent trees given to it in later books into other PrCs.
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MasterArkaine

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 07:56:40 pm »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?
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illslim2

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 08:10:36 pm »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?

This is why you are the Master, MasterArk. Plus it is fun!!!! Setting my computer calendar to remind me to bring this up again in 6 months. We get bored what else is there to do? But maybe play Saga in a PbP... nah.
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StevenO

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2015, 09:37:21 pm »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?

Every six months?  It doesn't seem that common or at least it doesn't in this direct question.  Maybe as a question about what the various classes represent I can concede but wondering if the Jedi class serves a purpose... not really.
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MERC_1

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 04:08:18 am »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?
This is a discusion that has come up before, but it is usualy a new member that has a problem. We all like helping out and pointing out what can be done to make the game better is one way to do that.

Typing out a old ansver once again is often faster then finding the old one anyway.

Some of the points in this thread came up just a few weeks ago in another thread, so it is not strange that you remember them.

DaSarcasticGuy

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2015, 11:22:17 am »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?

This is why you are the Master, MasterArk. Plus it is fun!!!! Setting my computer calendar to remind me to bring this up again in 6 months. We get bored what else is there to do? But maybe play Saga in a PbP... nah.

illslim2, I'm going to be really busy 6 months from now. Any chance you can alter this to come up in like 6 and half months?

illslim2

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2015, 12:01:25 pm »
You know this subject gets brought up about every six months and you all have the same conversation every time, right?

This is why you are the Master, MasterArk. Plus it is fun!!!! Setting my computer calendar to remind me to bring this up again in 6 months. We get bored what else is there to do? But maybe play Saga in a PbP... nah.

illslim2, I'm going to be really busy 6 months from now. Any chance you can alter this to come up in like 6 and half months?

We have just gotten a new batch of people registered on the forums I see. So one of them might bring it up a hair bit earlier than 6 months. And if one does not, then my reminder on my phone will go off and I will bring it up for you then.
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richterbelmont10

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2015, 12:16:09 pm »
I'm okay with the Jedi class. It has the advantages of having everything required at level 1 to be an effective "Jedi" (the Force and lightsaber), as well as the disadvantages of having the least number of trained skills to balance it out.

If I feel the need to use the Jedi class to create different force-using tradition characters, I will simply use house rules to exchange the Weapon proficiency (lightsaber) feat for an exotic weapon, as has been mentioned in previous posts.

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MasterArkaine

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2015, 01:43:41 pm »
The main themes and points of various opinions is what I remember when regarding the Jedi class

1) Most everyone hates the name "Jedi" for the class
2) UtF checks are very broken early on unless you use the SAM system, or at least strict access to Skill Focus
3) Based on the type of Force user, there is house-ruled options for starting feats
4) You can make a great Force using build without even touching the Jedi class

There are more, but these are common enough I remember them from multiple threads
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Soft

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Re: Are you okay with the Jedi class?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2015, 04:13:45 pm »
I'm currently trying to convince a GM that my scout who took force sensitivity and force training at level 1 is a Jedi.  He's insisting I start with the Jedi class.  What do I think of the Jedi class? It's bollocks.  It causes the stupidest arguments by its very nature.

I assured the GM i'll be multiclassing into Jedi eventually, but it's not working.  Thanks game designers.

Update: GM flipped the table on me after I pointed him here to see that the class has very little to do with Jedi.  I decided to quit while ahead and just bow out of the game.  I can only point out so many instances of characters who were Jedi and didn't start out with the class.  It's okay tho, since his "point buy" was 40 points 1:1 ratio added start 8, over 18 base, under 8 to get points.

It seems to be a running theme, any game with a high point buy is destined to fail.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 05:16:58 pm by Soft »